Fiber, never needed!


#1

Come on here…who are we kidding? Who despises this? Not one soul who has troubles in the guts. One of bloating, cramping, pain, and just having to maybe ‘live within’ a short run to a bathroom if needed! Anyone with these troubles knows how they want them eliminated from their lives.

Fiber talk. Your body only ‘needs fiber’ NOW in current times on the perverbial ‘tick tock of Earth timeline’ cause we eat SO HORRIBLE with fake foods that your body does require some ‘scrubbing out’. Yea eat horrible and fiber MIGHT, and this is a big might here LOL, help you a bit from the bad eating.

Now take away the bad eating. Fiber is now not needed ONE BIT by any colons, intestines of any humans living. (severe medical issues not included here obviously).

Take away the offenders and life improves dramatically.

Here is some info to read…thoughts/chat/discussion on it all is wanted by carnivores and those coming into this way of life and want some more science or info on it :slight_smile: Good carnivore read.

http://highsteaks.com/fiber/


(It's all about the bacon, baby!) #2

Dr. Fung calls carbohydrate poison and fibre the antidote. He says that if you don’t eat the poison, you don’t need the antidote. There is some wisdom there.

Here is an entertaining and informative talk by Zoë Harcombe, Ph.D.:


#3

Love that Paul.

that is it.

like big pharma…you got acid reflux. Take this pill, it will save ya. LOL
never a statement of watch what you eat and how it effects you and possibly eliminate some foods that cause that trouble. (in more normal cases of this of course)

same with fiber. got troubles from the bad things you eat, make sure you eat more plant fiber with the bad food to correct you.

So true!!!

I really have to say her "box ABCD’ was interesting for sure.
I love the ending her saying questions to the audience and all NOs came out……beans beans good for the heart, the more you eat…the more you _____!

She was good. I liked her definitely!


#4

that is a great article!!!


#5

World’s top Alzheimer’s researcher Dr, Dale Bredesen talks about meat, meat sources (potential toxicities) and the need for fibre in the diet based on anthropological and ancestral health thinking.

There is some interesting critical thinking to work through with this information.

In the context of a ketogenic eater who is aiming at initial body fat loss, the accumulated hydrophobic toxins that were sequestered in fat tissue are released and re-enter the extracellular space. The dietary fibre is a way to eliminate these toxins. Without the fibre the toxins are reabsorbed and in constant recirculation. (Reference needed).

Ancestral eating shows that our species ate large amounts of fibre daily (reference needed). Associated with our ancestors had less modern day diseases.

Dr. Bredesen is a well respected researcher and practitioner.

My opinion now. In the light of investigation it may be worthwhile to compare and contrast Dr Bredesen’s dietary recommendations and supporting knowledge with Amy Berger?

Dr Bredesen does not fully confirm my current biases (that’s good). Initially I was annoyed. But then I searched his name in relation to vegan and vegetarian dietary information. He is well respected there as well. Very interesting. Maybe this is a dietary diplomacy tactic? His main aim is preventing and resolving Alzheimer’s. In this moderate approach he spans vegan vegetarian paleo and keto with his advice and approach. And that covers a lot of people. With adjustments carnivores can be included.

There is a bit more. But this is my carnivore adjacent sceptic petticoat showing. In among various comments on this recent video it was suggested but not shown (hence blur filter) that Dr. Bredesen has a vegan or vegetarian background. He is lauded for his ability to accept meat as a condiment. But this theory fits well with some of the basis of his plant based dietary advice. Also, I haven’t yet followed the money as one should do when the term plant-based appears.

Scrub to 36m:07s

Ref
https://www.ketogenicforums.com/search?q=Fiber


(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #6

Jesus, I don’t get why everything has to be black and white. Do you absolutely have to live in a boolean world? Granted, it would be easier if everybody you meet on the street is either friend or foe, but that’s not the world I live in.

Fiber is clearly not as important as many people believe. But that’s no reason to declare that we shouldn’t have any at all. So far we simply don’t know if fiber is beneficial if you avoid carbs. It may be true, it may be wrong. There are indications that soluble fiber is beneficial for mood and the immune system sometimes, so why throw it out of the window?


#8

I still love what Paul says in his post above: Dr. Fung calls carbohydrate poison and fibre the antidote. He says that if you don’t eat the poison, you don’t need the antidote.

I also think in general as a person cleans up their food in their life…as in they drop ice cream, chips galore, donuts, cake, cookies, they default into ‘a healthy eating lifestsyle’ which is usually 'eat those ‘good veggies’ and drop the heavy veggies like a potatoe or corn…and they drop so much sugar from their life that the 'veggies which contain great fiber and good for you, ya know…and eat that ‘learner’ meats which is great for ya, you know…well heck yea they improve! So then veg/fiber included gets a great name for itself and I can see so many thinking it is just a wonder thing in their life. And yea for some in their journey the more junk/high processed/chemical laden food that is decreased from their menu will obviously help big time, I think the ‘veggie’ they eat then ramps itself up into some ‘more of a miracle veggie’ than it needs to be…eh, how I see it. Mostly the replace the crap/chemical/processed junky foods from their life, replace that with veggies and call it a miracle…it ain’t HAHA


#9

That’s great that some people do fine without it, some don’t! I’m one of them. 2 years of nonstop digestive issues leading to a colonoscopy got me back on supplemental fiber. All my digestive problems conveniently stopped at that point! I made the Doc aware how I ate and he immediately said you need the fiber, he was aware of keto and not against it, but said he was seeing more and more of this the last couple years with more people going low carb and keto. I was still very much on the “we don’t need fiber” wagon at that point but was sick of pain and blood in my toilet so I gave him benefit of doubt. He was right! Like everything else related to our health, we are NOT all the same. Now being on the other side of this argument I don’t know why we’re typically all about bio-individuality… until fiber gets brought up.


#10

agreed. I do believe in some medical situations people live with and thru in their daily lives, that some fiber in their system could be very important for that very individual case. As with any statements, there are some that will never fit the bill of that statement. I also feel that is always more of a minority vs a majority but also know that as an individual if having real hardcore medical issues, finding that sweet spot we require in life is a plus and roll from there.


#11

These two quotes and the anecdotes by Dr. Bredesen point at fibre being a dietary requirement temporally when toxins are in the gut. The fibre can accompany the toxins when eaten, or accompany the toxin out when the toxins are excreted back into the bowel. I haven’t quite worked that out as yet, they would be hydrophobic, so maybe they are incorporated in the bile?

Anyhow, when @Ifod14 s doctor says ‘you’ need the fibre, is that a universal collective you? Or an individual specific you? And surely the next question would be, why? Especially if the bowel distress symptoms related to a toxin, possibly dietary, possibly bacterial endotoxins? And on that second option maybe the fibre encourages the gut biome to crowd out endotoxins secreting bacteria with cellulose munching bacteria? The fibre may be a fibre bandaid?
But I’m glad it has fixed the symptoms.

Crikey! Jesus Crikey, is Richard Morris here? Everybody look busy. (St. Richard). [Angelic chorus]


(Elizabeth ) #12

Skin and cartilage on a carnivore diet can have a fiber-like effect.


#13

Understanding that this is a zero carb / carnivore thread and topic, and that “toxins” tend to be refined carbohydrates, chemically created food-like stuffs and industrial refined seed oils (“light machine oil” as Ivor Cummins has come to call it), all those toxins are not found in the carnivore eating approach. So the nuance here is that fibre is needed or superfluous based on the underlying base way of eating.

Here is another angle to look from about fibre. Many well-read keto-carnivores understand that fibre is not an essential nutrient. But what we eat can be made up of more than maximised nutrient content.

So if we look at the way we eat and the why we eat a discussion point appears.

In the CICO model of low fat high carb dieting to lose weight there is a stipulated role for fibre in terms of creating a volumetric sense of fullness. Fullness may not directly equate to what a ketogenic eater understands as satiety, a contented hormone based satiety. That said, there are stretch receptors on the stomach that are activated by food volume that result in fullness signals being sent to the brain to stop eating.

So another role for fibre is in satiety. It can be observed in carnivore newbies the surprise at how much non-plant food that they eat. Many comment that they feel ‘hungry’, or even ‘ravenous’ as they adapt to the way of eating. The change in protein intake, thankfully, does not heavily impact the body weigh metric. And, if it does, it can be argued to be due to lean body mass.

I was listening to Ted Naiman and Gabor Erdosi on podcasts this past week. I find them to be knowledgeable low carb commentators. Both mentioned the benefit (to them) of periodization of their carbohydrate intake, that is, only eating carbohydrates at a specific time, usually at the evening meal and only after the main protein and fat containing foods have been eaten. Their diets remain low carbohydrate in the ketogenic range. The carbohydrates are whole food sourced (e.g. fruit).

Ted Naiman, in particular, talks about the possible dietary advantage of this small amount of fibre and carbohydrate intake in terms of achieving a longer period of satiety from that meal. Subsequently it becomes an aid in the ease of long term, habitual time restricted eating (and intermittent fasting for those that way inclined).

Dr. Naiman even goes as far as to postulate a possible glycogen leverage effect. Where a hunger is generated in a carnivore eater where their body seeks to fulfil a minimum glycogen repletion requirement through dietary carbohydrate.

Carnivore and fasting don’t seem to fit as well together as nutritional ketosis and fasting, except of course in the broad range of overlap between carnivore and nutritional ketosis.

So fibre may be advantageous in terms of satiety as a nuanced, detailed dietary tweak. Especially for those who feel ravenous hunger on a non-plant way of eating.


Cheryl's 90 Day Carnivore Challenge: Started on Nov 01 going through to Feb 29, 2020
The carnivore diet is not a low carb diet? (and not necessarily ketogenic) Dr Gabrielle Lyon
(Elizabeth ) #14

Brilliant men all of them, but neither Naiman or Erdosi are carnivore. So they can speculate all they want. Naiman is also not a fan of higher fat which is what’s recommended on carnivore, 75 to 80% at least in the beginning. There is tons of collagen in meat which is a soluble fiber like substance. Even if you eat a lot of meat like me, bulk wise it’s still much smaller than the volume of food that a plant eater puts in their system every day. So I don’t see how adding a sweet potato occasionally would cause enough bulk to change satiety?It’s also very rare that someone isn’t satisfied with several pounds of fatty meat. I’m not discounting someone with an eating disorder which is in a whole different ballpark. The people eating ZC carnivore that I see that experiment with adding carbs usually disappear off the boards or they wind up face down in a gallon of ice cream and miserable, for months and in several cases years. There is so much benefit with being ketogenic, that if I could have stayed that way and seen the healing that I have in carnivore trust me, I’d be eating my dark chocolate and my avocados quite happily :slight_smile: I don’t tell anyone to eat this way because it’s the optimal human diet. But a 90-day trial as an elimination is a good place to start. Then add back in those things you truly miss and if you can tolerate them and still move forward on your journey then hallelujah :slight_smile:


#15

Yup. I am just like Elizedge. As many of us carnivores are. We are here for big reasons. We also know what the carbs/plants/chem. junk food out there has done to our bodies. We know better health without that junk above.

And I am also like E in that if I could eat friggin’ carbs a few times in my week I would be doing it but I can’t. A sweet potato. Who the hell wants that back? A sweet potato gonna fix me?? HAHA I want a friggin’ pizza! Then I want 1/2 gallon of ice cream. Moderation my foot LOL And second what E said again that any carnivores who do play with carbs in the end can’t stay on carnivore. No carnivores usually can. Carbs draw one right back up into sicky addict land and they grab ya and hold you and make ya sick for some of us. Carbs can make some of us very dysfunctional.
Without them we thrive.

I agree for those who do Keto Plan or VLC (very low carb type plan) got it made from my point of view. They can eat things and do very well. For me plants/veg is useless cause I hate those suckers just cause they nasty anyway, so my view is skip the whole veg. chapter of life, my range is then go from meat to ice cream and pizza.


#16

:point_up:

Nicely said.


(Elizabeth ) #17

There was a tweet just now from Ted that he eats about a hundred grams of carbs a day. His goal is leanness and low body fat. Most of us are not aspiring to be bodybuilders and body fat that’s too low is not healthy for women. There is a subset of people that got on the carnivore bandwagon because of Dr Baker and they want to be BA like him. However, the man is not lean but he is a world record holder. Honestly, who gives up chocolate and raspberries and peaches and other yummy things because they don’t like the taste? Most of us come to carnivore for the healing, and as long as I’m seeing improvement of symptoms as documented by my twice a year comprehensive blood panels and doctors visits, as well as the strength and reshaping of my body eating this way, I have no reason to add back anything. I have seen that, especially, for postmenopausal women like me, a slightly lower fat, 65 to 70%, tends to be where they settle but only after 2 to 5 years. There is a group of people that do better on a PKD 2 to 1 protocol however. Your mileage may vary.


#18

You said it great that improvements of your symptoms and your health trumps adding back. I so get that and many won’t tho. Which is why some of us carnivores fall into a different type of thinking category kinda than some other carnivores LOL Some come to play in carnivore land, some come to stay permanently in carnivore land :slight_smile:

I have to say chocolate, yea I want that but I don’t care about fruit ever. I don’t want veg. My carnivore upgrade is right to junk food like pizza, ice cream and my mom’s famous mac n cheese. loaded French fries, giant pretzels followed by a ball of cotton candy. Yea I am that type and I am almost totally uncontrollable eating that junk. Thing is I am not a ‘portion person’ in any way, I can’t do 1/2 cup of anything in my life. I got some food issues that truly only carnivore plan can handle. But if I could add back some things, yea I would of course but I know where I need to be for my best walk thru life and this carnivore plan suits me so well. I eat as much as I want, all the time, my body gets leaner and meaner and I feel just absolutely wonderful. I can’t give that up truly to go back to food insanity land.

I noticed my wants changing. I absolutely am eating less added fat like if I sautee chicken I would throw in 1/2 stick of grass fed butter, now I am down to like 1 big pat only. I find I just am changing to what the body truly needs. I find a 1 lb. ribeye just feeds my body so well. I eat that l lb. steak and after, I need very little food at all in my day to make me complete.

We all have our carnivore reasons for being here :slight_smile: but some of us truly do need to hold it strong. If not we have health issues kicking in, we have food issues that can get out of control, we have to fight the same crazy health and mental battles if we backslide too much. I can’t go there again, it is easier to enjoy carnivore in its glory and be wonderful then to go back into any nightmare food crazy I had in my life.

I love chatting this stuff out :slight_smile: It keeps cementing in for me why I am here, why this is me and makes me know that this is how I flourish best and do the best for myself every day in food choices for me personally.

I do think those who can’t truly fathom being carnivore, or have never given it a fair trial of at least 30 full on days, just will never understand the true benefits of this way of eating so it is very hard to convey to others about how darn good this plan really is for some of us!!