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Fat loss on CICO?
jfricke
(Guardian of the bacon)
#23
Thanks Bob, I was basically staging a mini protest that I was out of likesā¦
gardengirlkp
(Karen Parrott)
#24
I do have to monitor my CICO on Keto because I donāt get normal hungry/ full signals all the time. Not my fault as I have genetics for extra ghrelin hunger hormone.
It sucks but not as much as being 6 years old and being told I was a bad person. Or being in WW and told to eat anything I want in moderation.
It is what it is for me. MFP is my best tool
richard
(Richard Morris)
#25
I love that feature - thatās how I collect āMAILā for the podcast
Jennie
(Jennie)
#26
Thatās sad. Kids are growing and are hungry. Iām sorry you were treated like that.
I think, if you need to track your foods, thatās helpful. I tend to slide by without tracking, and I donāt think it always serves me well. I know many people come up against āstallsā in keto and one of the things they do is go back to tracking as a way of making certain they are eating the right things.
Also, itās data collecting and mindful eating. Both great things!
gardengirlkp
(Karen Parrott)
#29
I was a food addict at age 6 and couldnāt stop eating. I was obese and felt hungry, but over nourished for sure. It was and still a bad deal. I was told I was bad because I didnāt have normal off signals. Ugh.
At least Keto is the closest Iāve been to normal , ever.
Donna
(Meeping up the Science!)
#30
Actually, there are a few situations where this is the case. Itās possible, however it requires drastic circumstances.
WLS patients lose a tremendous amount of weight eating few calories, however we are not hungry and typically have a high expression of ketones (if we eat correctly). We also have metabolic alterations that do not occur with only fasting or caloric restrictions by themselves. Much of the muscle mass is maintained during rapid weight loss. WLS is poorly understood in our community in general, and itās not necessary to get it, except in a few cases.
Additionally, anorexics also lose a great deal of weight from very restrictive caloric intake. They also have exceptionally serious medical issues from this, and start to lose muscle mass from organs, and not only skeletal muscles. Refeeding is difficult to do in very severe cases.
Having said that, I do track what I eat and amounts, however this is because I am a food addict and have an eating disorder. I donāt care about calories, however I must be vigilant against certain food types sneaking back in. Zero carb makes this pointless though, as when ZC I find my appetite and food amounts are self regulated.
Jennie
(Jennie)
#31
If that off switch (which I think is a hormone?) wasnāt working, that really puts you in a jam.
Iām glad keto is making you feel closer to normal. Just remember, youāre not weird. Youāre one of a kind. 
JayMo602
(Jay Morris)
#32
For myself I have an interesting view on this -
I follow a Keto diet with a CICO rules.
I can tell you 100% honestly, if I eat over 1800 calories a day, no weight loss all week.
Eating at or under 1800 daily drops about 1.5 to 2 pounds a week for me.
Now the ONLY time I overeat my calories its going to be in fat or protein.
I got my target calorie goal from the same Keto Calculator just about everyone uses onlineā
Here is a copy of the stats-
Generated by Keto Calculator 9.10
42/M/6ā2" | CW 320 | 45% BF | Mostly sedentary
- 1878 kcal Goal, a 29% deficit. (798 min, 2661 max)
- 25g Carbohydrates
- 107g Protein (106g min, 175g max)
- 150g Fat (30g min, 236g max)
Chris_W
(Crow T. Robot)
#33
āCaloricā restriction, is nothing more than food restriction. As we all know (but CICO dogma tries to make us forget), food is also information. The type food you eat, as well as the quantity, elicits a certain physiological response. Energy content in the form of ācaloriesā has nothing to do with any of it. Counting ācaloriesā only works to the extent that itās a hackneyed (not to mention misleading) way of measuring food.
When you chronically restrict adequate nutrients (not ācaloriesā!), this is information to the body: thereās less food available than we need, so weād better āneedā less. This is an intelligent response to the environment, but when we restrict in order to lose fat, itās actually working against us. This is what we mean when we say āCICO doesnāt workā. Not that eating less food wonāt cause weight loss.
I for one would be much happier if the whole misguided concept of ācaloriesā went the way of the dinosaur. Itās 100-year-old science which should have been let go long ago.
Sorry for the pedantic rant, but this has been bugging me 
richard
(Richard Morris)
#34
I suspect you may have a low basal insulin level. A CI:CO diet works really well for people who are insulin sensitive. Coincidentally most dietitians and personal trainers are quite insulin sensitive. And they are not lying when they assure you that this method works to reduce body fat - it probably did for them.
Things are a bit different if you have a high fasted insulin. Satiety kicks in for me around 1500 kCal/day, so I am really still quite low calorie. Yet I donāt lose weight, and this chart explains why. My fasting insulin is 19.8 mU/l (118.8 pmol/l)
John
(John Nunez)
#35
Well @Genevieve, all of the responses have been really good but to the crux of your questionā¦youāre asking how? In other words, CICO and Keto are diametrically opposed to one another so how can they both have results correct? Iāve asked myself this same question and this is what I came up with. During CICO, since the energy intake is pretty low there is a possibility that one can metabolize most of what they eat during the day (especially with chronic cardioā¦usually accompanied by CICO). This then gives them a fasting window of probably 12 hrs (overnight) where insulin levels are lower. So itās really the intermittent fasting thatās attributing to the weight loss, not the caloric deficit. Also, studies show that the weight-loss is not created equalā¦on CICO there is a greater increase in lean body mass loss and not just fat. Guess that should be mentioned too revealing itās never going to be an equal comparison.
larry
(Larry Lustig)
#37
But they are not diametrically opposed to each other. Every single person I know whoās lost weight on keto and who has discussed their food intake talks about using keto to control their cravings and is clearly eating much less than in their pre-keto lives.
The problem is that itās essentially impossible for people with any significant degree of metabolic syndrome to get control of the calories-in side of the equation. Telling an insulin resistant person to eat less and exercise more is like saying breath less and fly more. Itās doable for a cormorant, but not for a diabetic.
People who are insulin sensitive may well be able to follow that plan. I never could. On keto, Iām able to eat pretty much one meal a day on weekdays (with HWC coffee in the morning) and two on weekends.
John
(John Nunez)
#38
Larry, I donāt believe you grasped my point. They are diametrically opposed since one diet is based on caloric regulation and the other is hormone disregulation (Keto). I merely was offering a theory as to why some people seem to initially be able to lose weight on the CICO approach (perhaps unintentional intermittent fasting).
You mentioned āEvery single person I know whoās lost weight on keto and who has discussed their food intake talks about using keto to control their cravings and is clearly eating much less than in their pre-keto lives.ā
Unfortunately, with this line of thinking you seem to suggest that the reason people are losing weight on Keto is because they are eating less. I respectively disagree. Yes, perhaps a person may eat less because of a correction in hunger hormones on Keto but their weight-loss isnāt because they are eating less, but because they are priming their bodies for fat burning due to primarily lower serum insulin levels. A good proof in this is all of the anecdotal evidence of people increasing their caloric intake beyond low-call levels such as 4,000-5,000 kcals.with Keto-only food and still manage to lose weight. Keto on my friend 
larry
(Larry Lustig)
#39
Anecdotal evidence isnāt proof. But in this case the only anecdotal evidence Iām aware of is one fellow who tried a SAD diet and a keto diet at about 5k calories per day. He gained on both diets, although much more slowly on keto***. Would certainly be interested in any demonstrations, even anecdotal, on someone continuously losing weight while eating a steady 5000 calories a day.
I definitely believe that the same person eating the same calories on a SAD vs. a keto diet will have a better outcome on the keto diet. But I also believe that someone eating keto will lose more weight on 1500 calories a day than they will on 2500. If Iām correct, then itās not (or not only) improved hormonal response but _also_the amount of food consumed that plays a role.
I also donāt think thereās much role, if any, in the calories out (exercise) part of the equation.
*** Correction: He did only the keto version for three weeks and compared it to the expected weight gain of the additional calories translated directly into fat. He gained weight on the keto diet, but less than would have been predicted by directly translating calories to fat.
John
(John Nunez)
#40
Aside from anecdotal evidence, every study that compares LFHC and LCHF where both groups have the same caloric intake, LCHF has more weight-loss. This is the proof in the pudding that itās more than just the calories. Of course if you do a 1,500 calorie Keto diet vs. a 2,500 calorie Keto diet, the 1,500 one will win but that doesnāt necessarily give credence to your Energy Balance leanings for several reasons (I can elaborate on at a later timeā¦need to get the kiddos to bed).