Fat adaption process and training

(ianrobo) #41

for ref took some measurements just

Ketone 0.8
Blood sugar 6.4
BP 124/76

(Mike Glasbrener) #42

My ketones are after skipping a day eating so… 36-40hrs fasted. So they should be high. Of course Blood sugar should be low also. Again, I’m trying to get hbA1c down to around 5 to reverse a prediabetic condition that contributed to me tearing my quad. I’ll get remeasured in April and if it’s not in the vicinity of 5 I’ll be disappointed. Also, I have a family history. Both my dad and my father’s brother had diabetes and pretty bad. My dad passed from pancreatic cancer. Thus I’m hoping fasting and low carb minimizes those risks.

Today is refeed so tomorrow morning if the trend continues should be a strong spin morning and it will be in the fed state. I would guess my ketones will be lower since I’m eating today and refeeding which I struggle with a bit. I would guess if I ride hard for ~1hr the differential will be greater between pre and post spin. However, if BS remains low I’m guessing riding “hardish” isn’t counter productive? I’ll have to remember to be more vigilant and test pre/post spin again. Also, I’ll need to reorder more strips. But it’s well worth trying to understand what’s going on with my n=1 experiment to optimize training…

EDIT:
I’m not very worried about BP since it’s ~130/78. The pre/post spin is still a curiousity though…

(ianrobo) #43

the only thing I can think off is during exercise your body make more ketones for the energy and this is the excess ? possible ? esp after some fasts, I really must do mine before a fasted ride and after

(Mike Glasbrener) #44

I love cycling the day after a refeed day… Today was the strongest ride (TriSoce=60) I’ve had in since I last trained regularly, 5 years ago or so. I’ve had a few ramps and interruptions between then and now. Anyhow I spun for 75 minutes. I warmed up a few minutes, I felt good and continued to manage cadence and heart rate. Cadence is still low, around 70 and I managed my HR in the low 150’s for about 1hr. Then I cooled down for 10 or so minutes. By then to continue at the same power level wasn’t going to happen w/o raising intensity (HR). I was never a fan of cool downs. However, if it gives BS a soft landing and cooks off excess ketones then maybe it’s actually productive?

Prespin:
Ketones: 0.9
BS : 96
BP : 130/79

Postspin:
Ketones: 1.4
BS : 92
BP : 106/70

As I mentioned I struggle with refeed (ketones =0.9). The new meter will maybe help me optimize that some. Perhaps a bit too much protein when refeeding… I’ve been refeeding w/o concern about volume. I just avoid being hungry and eat no egregious carbs and absolutely no simple carbs.

I thought BP would be correlated with something. I’m not so sure. By the time I got off I felt fine, not spent. I’m still getting sit bones acclimated. Ketone levels are quite a bit below fasted state,. However, the BP drop is still significant after this ride… I guess more data needed. I am not refueling immediately like common wisdom. I’ll continue my IF till lunch to manage down BS/insulin levels and tomorrow, of course, begins another 36ish hr fast again so a Sat/Sun ride will be a rewarding post refeed ride…

(Mike Glasbrener) #45

Today was once again a fasted spin. Each time I’m stronger as training ramps. However, my fasted rides are consistently ~15% worse than my fed rides. I’ve adjusted my fasting schedule to Mon and Thurs so weekend rides will be re-fed/fed. My BS in the morning regardless of fasted or fed the day before are mid 80s to mid 90s. So pre diabetes is gone and, I would guess, insulin resistance is subsiding…

So…

Today was a fasted spin. As usual it sucked in comparison to fed spins but not as bad as the previous spin. Today I worked on keeping the HR a bit lower (high 140s to low 150s) than fed spins and largely ignoring the power meter to get more time in the saddle. It seemed to work in that it was my longest fasted spin and I got off not nearly as spent as previous efforts.

Numbers:
Prespin:
BS: 84
Ketones: 3.3
BP: ?forgot to measure… Sue me!?

Post spin:
BS: 85
Ketones: 4.0
BP: 104/62

Since I got up early I had an extra hour before work. I think fasting may become more trouble ahead… I didn’t sleep quite as well. I think 2 day fasts are no longer going to work for me. I struggle with a bit with refeeds so I ate some bacon with fat this morning and some smoked sausage links and chilled a bit. I measured my BP about 1 hour or so are eating and spin and it rose to 118/73 so it appears the drop is transitory as one would expect…

(ianrobo) #46

so wonder if @richard has thoughts on why the Ketones rise so much,

(Richard Morris) #47

The process of making more glucose when you are glycogen depleted and burning plenty of fat causes ketones to be made. That will be lowered by circulating insulin as your body thinks it’s switching over to a fed state.

I suspect Mikes rise is related to the fact that he’s pushing his system more to make energy and more ketones are a natural result.

(Mike Glasbrener) #48

Thanks for the reply. The ketone thing makes sense. My ketones didn’t rise quite as much on this last fasted spin where I rode longer at a bit lower intensity (perceived and HR) and my ketone rise was lower. I think the BP drop seems to correlate with what feels like cardiac fatigue and on the last measurement recovered quite a bit in about one hour.

I wonder if my fasted riding being harder than some people describe is because my BS seems controlled now and fairly normal while being pretty strict keto (maybe a bit higher protein a bit more often though). People who are losing weight, metabolizing fat, and still have a higher baseline glucose may still be good at releasing glucose from their body and therefore have access to both glucose and fat, ketones?

My rides the day after refeed seem the best! I’m attributing that to growth hormone…

I’ll continue to track and learn more about my n=1 experiment back to where I want to be.

(ianrobo) #49

had very low breath ketones recently but did a big ride today and took a reading …

barely moved …

different bodies and all that !

(Mike Glasbrener) #50

Lol. I know you’re much fitter than I. I think you capacity to utilize ketones is higher than mine and perhaps your production and musculature consumption of ketone is better matched than mine. I got out for a real training ride finally once again today. It was really great to be in the saddle again. It was 2 hrs with some very small repeater hill intervals. Only 826 cal of work. It pales to your current rides. About 20 min late I measured ketones/BS/BP (3.3-85-118/73)… I feel great post ride btw. No post ride crash!!! Part of my ramp is to steadily raise power efforts to see when my quad complains. I do not want a set back so steep hill climbs will take a while to get to.

EDIT: My knees continue to feel better and better! Best when ketones are high. Anti inflammatory?

(ianrobo) #51

Same as well felt great after the effort but just hungry which is fine as key for me is no cramping etc

(ianrobo) #52

OK everyone look at this - 150km - no food at all, good pace and my targets hit …

This remeber is ALL FASTED and thats true fat adaption and what everyone in this forum is capable of. Talking of needing food during a run or ride is purely psycological IMHO on anything shorter than 6-8 hours duration.

(ianrobo) #53

Oh I should mention I feel great as of course when fat adaption kicks in then far less muscle stress !

(Bob Williams) #54

Let me start, as one working my way to a higher level of cycling ketosis fat adatation, by pointing out that Ian is a model for admiration and inspiration. As I read through this topic there were a issues that were being discussed that were expertly covered in Jeff Volek’s book. One was the direct effect that exercise has on ketone production. Volek states that “ketone levels increase sharply during the 1-2 hours after exercise…which is beneficial…but can be halted if carbs or some supplements are consumed within that time frame”. I have found this approach helpful in determining the highest ketone production for a training specifics.

He also defines the “Ketone Zone” where “blood ketone levels start at .5 millimolar …and improve up to 3.0 millimolar…with no benefits higher than 3”. In fact anything above that apparently rings alarm bells since it is normally a condition brought about by starvation. Hmmm that doesn’t sound to pleasant :slight_smile: Not too sure how Mike rang up blood readings of 4 and 5+ but it’s hopefully it can be attributed to first time use!!

Hope these points were of interest and applicable to the discussion. Enjoy…

(Mike Glasbrener) #55

Ok. My training has been consistent and ramping nicely. I fast on Mon and Thurs so I can ride re-fed. The last 3 weeks I’ve managed 3-3.5 hrs in the saddle and am playing with nutrition/electrolytes. When I was somewhat carby I used GU for water bottles, gels for fuel and protein/energy bars for solid fuel… 2 weeks ago by 3 hrs in the saddle I was struggling I bit. Last week I fueled a bit more and used nunn electrolytes for water bottles it was better. This week I rode nearly 3.5 hrs. I fueled with UCAN bars-2ea. and one Rx bar. The UCAN bars are slow carb and about 17gr ea. The Rx bar is 21gr I think and fast carbs but I took 1/2 hr or so to eat it. I burned ~1550 cal as measured by a power meter and maintained a managed hr the whole ride. I felt very good at the end of the ride. I figured the fatigue on the previous rides was fat burn limited. Kind of like a soft “bonk”. Now for the conundrum. About 1/2 hr post ride I measured blood glucose and it was 140s!:open_mouth:. Then and hr later I measured 120s.:slightly_frowning_face:. WTF. Today I ate some steak for breakfast then a few hrs later I measured BG @130 after 50 min steady state trainer and 520 cal I measured 119 BG.

I did some quick calculations… normal BG is ~100mg/dL. The human body contains ~5L of blood so that means about 5000mg of glucose or about 5gr of glucose? Wholly crap. That’s only 20 cal? So I understand the body stores carbs in muscles throughout the body etc…

I’m confused! I am experimenting with fueling in the saddle and am quite surprised that perhaps it wasn’t a fuel bonk but fatigue was training related?

(Doug) #56

Good question, Mike. I never really thought about “running out of fuel” when fat-adapted. Used to be, it was said that the buildup of lactic acid or ‘lactates’ was the cause of fatigue, and now apparently it’s more an increase in hydrogen ions in the muscle cells, getting more acidic in the purest chemical sense. (?)

I understand we are limited in the amount of fat we can burn in one day. Traditionally, “hitting the wall” or “bonking” was due to our more easily-accessed glycogen stores being depleted, no? For those who are fat-adapted, I picture a less dramatic and longer period where we get closer to the limit, and energy production tails off - I’d think it would take more and more effort to maintain vigorous exercise, there.

Whether it’s just a pH change or the buildup of lactates in the muscles that brings the feeling of fatigue - does this feel different than really starting to “run out of fuel”?

(Mike Glasbrener) #57

When I was carb fueled I’ve “bonked”. It was the most horrible experience! I was about 4 or so miles from the end of my ride… I could start to turn pedals and turn them over 3-4 times then they would stop even though I told my legs to go. After a few seconds I would rinse and repeat. This went on for ~1/2 hr and it sucked beyond measure! I also had massive brain fog.

Two weeks ago toward the end I would pause periodically. However, I would generate 80-100W or so while pedaling. I also might have been a tad fuzzy but not total brain fog. So it was uncomfortable but in no way horrible. This past Saturday rocked. I felt great in the saddle the whole time. By the end I was a bit weary but fine. Now my only concern is my previously torn quad is a bit achy today because I pushed very hard on rollers. That’s probably ripping up some scar tissue that I haven’t touched since it healed. It’s all good. Saturday was the best ride I’ve had in years.

(ianrobo) #58

you would notice the difference between fatigue and bonking, the two are different in many ways. Not least if you bonk you will be unable to turn the pedals at all …

Mike you will have seen the ride I did on Saturday, yes at the end I was fatigued and VERY hungry … but I never bonked and I could have carried on if I needed to but generally muscle soreness.

So the real question is do you need to do core work etc and strength exercising

(Mike Glasbrener) #59

Okay I’ll throttle on bike fuel back a bit and track BG before and after rides to understand more. If BG plummets that’s bonking. I doubt the traditional bonk is possible if fat adapted… I also am trying to improve power to weight… There’s so many wonderful climbs here. You can climb through the morning marine layer and kiss the am sun! I saw your ride… 250 miles an a really strong pace! Wholly crap! It’s insane! I’ve done century’s with 10ft of climbing. But 250 miles… crazy and congrats. Nice ride to say the least!

Core work. Yeah I think that’s a great idea. I’m still overweight and thus hands get numb at times due to weight on bars…

(ianrobo) #60

I started core work after Xmas as various people nagged me about it and will do the same to you !!!

yep you can only bonk if fat adapted if you are pushing the higher zones of power and HR constantly with no rest … look at my ride and I barely peddled on downhills etc and thats recovery … Again everything depends on your aims for any particular ride …