Fat adaption process and training

(ianrobo) #21

maybe have three points of normal measures, When you are up, when tyou go to bed and just before exercise and then the one after the spin

(Mike Glasbrener) #22

129/81 last night
132/76 pre spin
109/69 3 min post spin
111/71 20 min post spin
I had a bunch of salt and stayed hydrated. Power was down some after ~15 min and after 35 min. I was truly done and felt drained unlike yesterday. This spin was 36 hrs into a black coffee, water only fast. Tomorrow morning will be @60 hrs with spin each day for the ~10 last days ramping from poor cardio. The drop in BP may be related to cardiac exhaustion due to glycogen depletion as a result of fasting? I felt felt fine/strong for the first 15min. Then fatigue hit but I kept HR in previous window. 150s/grazing 160s. I might be fine at that rate for a while while I have glycogen to burn. However, I would guess those stores are lower when fasting? I don’t know. More n=1 experimentation to come…

(ianrobo) #23

I do not know the answer to this but calling @richard to this thread as well !!

(Mike Glasbrener) #24

Well this morning was my third fasted spin and there’s seems to be a correlation between BP drop and fasted state for me at this point in my training. To maintain power in the fasted state my HR goes up a few ticks. But I am in no way respiration in a heavy work load. I still don’t completely no my HR and workload limits. Anyhow, when I’m done in the fasted spin I definitely feel more “spent/tired” than in the fed state. However, by the next day I am fully recovered. I’ll track and share what I learn as I get back up to a training level I want to be at. Interestingly my knees feel great in the fasted state and a bit less great in the fed state.

Today’s numbers

Pressing 134/83
Post spin 114/67

Second thought… Clearly ketones are higher and insulin is down in the fasted state as everyone drops “water weight”, inflammation, during a fast. I wonder if this opens up the vasculature during exercise more when fasted vs not…

(Mike Glasbrener) #25

Yesterday was refeed after 2 fasting days.
This morning Heart rate was down a little bit, cadence same and average power up 10%. I also spun nearly 50% longer so the total cals consumed was more than 50% more. I got off the bike slightly spent…

Today Pre spin 128/75
post spin 115/70

So drop in heart rate seems correlation with perceived exhaustion getting off. So far time/workload to exhaustion seems sooner in the fasted state.

My goal is to work on cardio and both the numerator and denominator in power to weight. :slight_smile:

Side note: I watched The Armstrong Lie and 33minutes in they mention where he was coming from after chemo. His weight was way down and he lost a bunch of muscle. Thus, the way he could win was through cardio and high cadence. I wonder if that’s sort of correlated with similar things wrt keto. i.e. weight should be controlled and fat utilization is higher thus threshold heart rate is higher. Clearly he used EPO as an advantage which just fit right in with the cardio aspect.

(ianrobo) #26

and for that read Chris Froome as well, exactly the same model

(Mike Glasbrener) #27

My training suffers based on metrics when I’m fasted… My max HR used to be around 172 which is about where I think it is now… I’m a 6’5" 56yr old guy. Whether fasted or not, right now I can spin ~150 to 158 HR for 30-60 minutes. When fasted my power at that HR drops 10-15%. Also when fasted I am more spent after 30 or so minutes compared to the fed state. Lastly, My post spin BP drops more consistently when fasted which I think indicates more cardio exhaustion/strain. Today was after about a 36hr fast.
prespin BP: 128/81
post spin BP: 100/68

On the positive side my knees continue to improve and feel a bit better fasted than non fasted. But they feel the best now since my torn quad. Also, I can go pretty hard every day and am nearly to fully recovered by the next day. My short term Aerobic stress and long term aerobic stress are the highest they’ve been since I was very well trained.

(ianrobo) #28

so it proves this method aids recovery but drops power, so in some ways I am not surprised. So the big question for you is what is best long term for your aims ?

(Mike Glasbrener) #29

You read my mind!!! I fast to improve my metabolic health. Usually Mon and Fri. I may move it to Mon and Thurs to allow me to be fed for Sat rides coming soon. It seems to improve my knees which I am guessing is inflammation? I was also contemplating intervals on fasted mornings to allow the increase in human growth hormone post fast to enhance the repair from the interval tear down. All my trends feel so good after being “off the bike” and untrained for soo long.

Long term aims… I’d love to do the local 100mile fondo again… I’ve done it a few times in the past but that was a few years ago… It’s ~100mile with over 9kft of climbing… There’s lots of great routes I’ve used for training around me. However, my power to weight ratio needs to be good enough for sustained 10% grades with bumps to the low teens…

So as soon as the weather is nice I want to start grinding two plus hours (5+ at the end of the summer) in the saddle and learn more about how to fuel keto rides for me. I’m thinking ucan bars could be a viable option to manage insulin while providing a low level source of carbs to replentish burned carbs… Drinks will no longer be GU of course…

#30

I am similar to you. 59 years old, 6’4" and 235lbs. I go into the red a lot when riding hills.
I just listened to an older podcast with Peter Defty. #23 on the Ketogenic Athlete. He goes on quite a bit about fat adapted athletes taking in carbs “strategically” for hard efforts. You burn the carbs right away no no concern with insulin response. I plan on drinking Ucan this year before my rides and will take some for refills on longer rides. There is also more information if you search Targeted Keto.

(ianrobo) #31

Yep there is this debate between MAF/defty and carbs and I think for a person you have to do what feels right ???

(Mike Glasbrener) #32

In the spirit of trying to optimize exercise/training… I purchased a Keto Mojo which will let me monitor ketones and blood glucose. It seemed like a reasonably priced option for doing this. Especially if it helps me optimize training! There might be cheaper options…??? But this seems to be accurate and easy to use.

I switched fasting to Thursdays so weekend rides will be in the fed state. Today, Friday was a fasted spin. I dialed back effort to try to keep power flat and heart rate down. My heart rate indeed wanted to creep. I have to continually do micro adjustments every few minutes as the fly wheel on my spin bike warms up to keep cadence/power the same.

Pre spin:
BP 129/80
Ketones - 4.5 mmoL/dL
BS 82 mg/dL

Post Spin
BP 104/65
Ketones - 5.8mmoL/dL

One thing I worry slightly about is if higher effort levels cause fat mobilization to drop and glucose mobilization to rise and deplete the stores you have and post ride leave you with elevated BS and thus and elevated insulin level which would be counter productive (there’s some research that warns of this). After the 45min. spin I was cardio tired… Weird… However, since ketones rose I’m going to believe I was burning fat. A potential confounder is hydration. However, I consumed about 18oz of tap water during the spin so I do not think I was dehydrated nor was I particularly thirsty once off the bike. I couldn’t get a fucking post ride BS because I couldn’t draw blood. I must clot exceptionally well! I’ll need to learn more about “finger pricking” to add this data properly.

Not training related… I’m very excited to have a fasting BS of 82!!!:grinning:

(ianrobo) #33

fascinating Mike … look at high the Ketones are … and esp after exercise must show very good fat adaption ?

#34

That looks pretty good. Highest I have ever seen for Ketones is 2.3. Your blood pressure drop is about the same as mine. Either this is normal or we both have a heart condtion. I assume the former.

(Mike Glasbrener) #35

Thanks… Perspective for me helps a bit. I feel like I’m finally making progress. 5 years ago I did a 1/2IM last year I was 75lbs heavier rehabbing a badly torn quad and I was prediabetic…

I’m very pleased. I’ve been ketoish with some minor hiccups for nearly a year. I say ketoish because I probably exceed protein a bit when feeding. However, I haven’t had a simple carb including refined grains or starchy veggies in so long I doubt I’d recognize them. :slight_smile:

My current scheme is to cardio spin at some level EVERY morning. I may push to hard and am trying to optimize based on data because my extensive riding history NO LONGER APPLIES, as you know. I know people, including Fung who I vastly respect, say exercise doesn’t matter. However, I’m hoping intelligent timing and amount of exercise can actually be a lever. It’s a long winded way of saying I stopped eating Wed. night after dinner. I then did a bit over 600cal of work (PM Strava includes basal metabolic burn) Wed. morning which should drive my insulin level down. I then fasted till the next morning which was today of course. This is the first time I’ve ever measured ketones and BS at home and I didn’t know what to expect. 4.5 pre and 5.8 post was a pleasant surprise on both accounts as was the BS reading.

My last 2 day fast kind of sucked so I’m reverting back to 36hr fasts Mon and Thurs. I’m also hoping that the spin Mon and Thurs. morning will make those fasts much more effective by driving my insulin down for the last 24hrs a lot…

More data to come as I gather it…

(Mike Glasbrener) #36

Thanks for sharing. Are you talking about fasted or fed? I have been a hair concerned about the BP drop and if it was a marker for cardiac problems. Since you see the same I’ll assume it’s cardio fatigue and bottomed out insulin.

#37

I have always seen the blood pressure drop whether fasted or not.

(Mike Glasbrener) #38

True! Mine drop in either case also. I’m trying to understand what it means. Mine drop some in the fed state and much more in the fasted state.

(Mike Glasbrener) #39

Yesterday was the first rest day in about a month. Intervals on Saturday reminded me that my quad will fail under power so I’ll manage rehabbing that while ramping training. Also, hips reminded me it’s been a while since power…

Today was a 36hr fasted spin:
Prespin:
ketones; 2.5
BS : 94

Post Spin:
ketones: 2.9
BS : 88

My heart rate was still quite high but I managed by both perceived effort and peak heart rate by trying to keep cadence in a constant range (still low for riding) and adjusting the flywheel drag. I rode for 50 min. I’m guessing this is near my MAF levels because I exited with ketones near start level and BS mostly untouched so most of the 500 calories I’m guessing was from metabolized fat? This is BY FAR my best fasted ride!!! I got off and felt… good and could have gone longer if I had time…

This begs the question… What does it mean when I exit a session and my ketone levels rose? Did I have an unmatched system? i.e. Did my ability to produce ketones outstrip my ability to utilize them for fuel? If so how do I ramp my muscles ability to metabolize ketones? Secondly, is the keto mojo actually lumping lactate into the ketone results?

I didn’t take prespin BP. I did take post spin BP and will update at some point. I forgot to xfer to my phone prior to going to work.

(ianrobo) #40

This is all fascinating Mike as I simply can not get my ketones THAT high, OK I measure with the breath one but even now I am around the 40 mark (just in ketosis as per 0.5 …) so it seems I am the opposite of you Mike … maybe I should track the same but always forget to measure :slight_smile: