Fasting, autophagy, and fat supplementation

[marklifestyle]

If I remember correctly you are an attorney? long days? Warrior style might work well with that. We abandoned the strict warrior style fasting once we got into longer fasts as limiting eating so much was boring and I don’t think it really was beneficial once we did the EF. I will often go 18 hrs or so with only some HWC but only cause I no longer eat that often. I suspect that each time we do a 4-6 day fast we do far more for tissue repair. The first couple of times it felt superficial but around the fourth time things really began to hurt. Then the pain would go away to not come back. I believe, perhaps erroneously, that this was repair at work. New tissues created new pains until the renovation was complete.

[dgiger]

How do you calculate you fat flow rate?

[ourtown]

I am an attorney and warrior fasting works really well with my lifestyle.

[CSue]

Is this for people who don’t have visible body fat? Seems obvious to know if you have enough if you can grab a lot of fat on your body? Or am I missing something?

Update: I read the post http://blog.2keto.com/why-fasting-is-easier-for-some-people/, and now remember looking into this issue before. According to the calculators I shouldn’t be able to get enough calories just from my fat, but I have no problem fasting. I don’t get hungry, and I’ve been losing fat nicely since I went from 16:8 IF to 1.5-3.5 day fasts. Currently I am skipping food 1 day in 3 (basically doing a 42 hour fast every 3 days). I believe my metabolism slowed on 16:8 with calorie reduction, but it rebounded when I switched to the longer fasts. I’m also lifting weights and put on a few pounds of muscle during this time.

Does this apply mainly to longer fasts? I have not done more than 42 hours or so in a couple months, and before then I had 10 and then 5 more pound of fat than I do now. I guess the question is how do you know if this is applying to you? I saw being cold and being tired as possible indicators. So if you aren’t cold or tired are you OK?

[CSue]

FWIW I personally find the time from 24-42 hours to be the easiest! Basically if I eat my last meal at dinner, then I just need to get through the next day. I never even start to feel hungry until the afternoon, and it’s not too hard to get busy or drink a lot of fluids and get through that day. Then at 26-36 hours I’m asleep! I don’t usually get hungry until lunch that day.

[jeannieo]

I’m curious. Where did you get the idea that drinking water can cause an insulin response?

[devhammer]

Where did you get the idea that drinking water can cause an insulin response?

See:

High Fat

Eating anything will raise insulin - just stretching the stomach will cause a release. So limiting the amount of meals you eat is a good strategy. If you have to stretch your stomach do it as few times a day as you can. Eating Carbs obviously raises insulin… Yeah don’t eat carbs … but you knew that right Eating protein raises insulin by roughly 50% (I think the exact amount is 56%) of carbohydrate. You need some protein, but I would suggest finding out how much that number o…

In this case, @richard doesn’t cite specific sources, but I’m pretty comfortable trusting one of the 2 Keto Dudes on this topic.

You’d have to drink a good quantity of water to cause the stretching, but not necessarily difficult.

[atomicspacebunny]

What inhibits glucagon, insulin and HGH? Amino acids (the exception to the inhibition rule) stimulate the production of glucagon and also stimulates uptake of glucagon into the liver! (why we need to eat meat, and of course in the absence of any kind of sugar).

Somatostatin will inhibit insulin, glucagon and HGH which is a 14 amino acid neurohormone mainly secreated by the digestive, nervous system and other organs. …More

How is somatostatin controlled?
In the same way that somatostatin controls the production of several hormones, these hormones feed back to control the production of somatostatin. This is increased by raised levels of these other hormones and reduced by low levels.

Somatostatin is also secreted by the pancreas in response to many factors related to food intake, such as high blood levels of glucose and amino acids …More

Research:

1. Metabolic effects of acute and prolonged growth hormone excess in normal and insulin-deficient man. Acute growth hormone administration without somatostatin had a mild ketogenic action despite stimulated insulin secretion but no change in plasma non-esterified fatty acid or blood glycerol levels was observed. Somatostatin magnified the ketogenic effect of acute growth hormone excess, and unmasked a lipolytic action.

2. Effects of somatostatin on established induced ketosis.

3. Understanding glucagon (and somatostatin 28)

4. Omega-3 fatty acids and FFAR4 “…It was shown by Stone et al. that FFAR4 activation leads to decreased somatostatin secretion …”

5. Excess Omega-6s: Root Cause of Diseases of Civilization?

[Bahrutile]

Yeah, anything we ingest will cause an insulin response from what i understand, fasting and being on keto for longer will decrease the amount of insulin your body will automatically dump with everything we eat or drink. I guess you can even have an insulin response from seeing food…

[ourtown]

I did do a three-day fast last week, it went really well I think. I had one cup of bone broth with a little butter on day two. Took the edge right off.

[Bahrutile]

I’m in the middle of an impromptu 3 day fast right now, just water, I did a 7 Day fast a couple weeks back, just water and black coffee… it went much better than i could have hoped. i do ensure i get enough salt and magnesium and potassium… I’m planning a 14 day fast here soon, curious if i can make it through.

[Janie]

In general the first day on a fast you are using body fat AND fat being trafficked by LDL AND fat (and protein/carbs) from the food you’ve eaten. Second day you are now using just body fat and any fat still circulating in LDL. By day three you are running only on body fat and here’s the problem for skinny people fasting. Body fat has a limit how fast it can give up energy,

Boy this really hit home for me!

Been keto for 6 months and started my first EF Sunday evening. Monday (Day 1) I did my 2-mile lunch walk with my buddy the same as always.

Tuesday (Day 2) at the very end I had tightness in my upper shoulders and out of energy. I stopped for a few minutes to rest then finished my walk.

Today (Day 3) it started about a fourth of the way into it. I told my buddy I had been fasting for 60 hours and when he got over his shock he was very sympathetic and was so sweet to me every time I had to stop. I was so embarrassed I couldn’t walk at my normal brisk pace.

I was leaning over with my hands on my knees and I grumbled that a 59-yo, post-menopausal woman just couldn’t access her fat stores like a youngun’. My HOMA says I am not IR. But I just had the feeling I wasn’t able to release fat fast enough and make it available. I was just out of gas.

I had some bone broth, but next time I will have a bite of butter.

Thanks for the info!

[Jennifer_Sagely_Clem]

are you saying it takes 24 hours for autophagy? I have been doing 16:8 IF so what is the point if I can’t get the benefit of autophagy during that 16 hour fasting window?

[OldDoug]

Jennifer, the autophagy we get from fasting may be starting, a little, at the end of a 16 hour period, but overall it’s only going to be a tiny amount, compared to what comes with longer fasts.

Autophagy is always going on, at a low, basal level, in some tissues - especially those which are composed of “non-mitotic” cells (those which cannot divide and multiply to dilute the effects of faulty or damaged cells). Being deficient or compromised in this area can be a real problem, as with the nervous system/brain, i.e. the build up of protein debris - ‘tau proteins’ and ‘amyloid plaques’ are markers for Alzheimer’s disease.

Macroautophagy - that which gets going in response to lowered level of nutrients, begins and later increases, after food gets all the way through the small intestine, and after the ‘post-absorptive’ phase ends. It will vary by the individual and by what types of food were in the system. If that has occurred by 18 hours, I think you’re lucky. Some benefit will probably be had from 18 to 24 hours.

In mice, autophagy is still increasing in some tissues at 48 hours of fasting. Things usually happen faster in a mouse, versus humans - mice have a much faster metabolism, a heart rate roughly ten times ours, etc. A mouse will often be dead after fasting for 72 hours. In humans, insulin is usually declining into the 3rd or 4th day, and autophagy is sensitive to insulin/glucagon levels. I think 3 to 5 days is perhaps the “sweet spot” for humans.

[Janie]

If you are IF for autophagy then probably not much benefit.

But there are other benefits from IF you may be realizing. Low insulin response which can reverse/prevent insulin resistance in some people, weight loss, etc.

[NY2]

So if I am getting cold while fasting or even on days when I am not fasting, I am shutting down my metabolism. Because I have been freezing since starting Keto 3 weeks ago. (and im normally very hot natured).

[devhammer]

So if I am getting cold while fasting or even on days when I am not fasting, I am shutting down my metabolism.

Maybe.

Re-sharing my earlier post in this thread, which is relevant, in case you missed it:

Cold can indicate insufficient energy, for sure. But the other variable I’ve read about is thyroid. If you aren’t getting sufficient iodine (for example, from iodized salt), your thyroid may not be able to do its job, and one symptom of that can be cold. Low thyroid can also affect other hormones as well.

Since I usually do non-iodized pink salt for my salt intake, I started taking kelp tablets to ensure I have sufficient iodine. My n=1 experience is that I don’t seem to get cold as much since I started. Something to consider and, if you’re working with a keto/fasting-friendly physician, to discuss with them.

[PaulL]

Isn’t feeling cold a symptom of lack of protein? I thought that was the reason for feeling cold while fasting.

[Janie]

Well I have the metabolism of a snail and I run HOT all the time. I can break out in a sweat in sub freezing temps. My hands are ALWAYS warm no matter the temps. sigh

[dlc96_darren]

I had the opposite experience, after starting keto.

I used to always be hot, but after I started losing weight, a light breeze could make me shiver.

Now, if the temps are in the 40’s (F) or lower, I have to wear long-johns, or my legs and feet will freeze all day.

Quite discombobulating for someone who always used to be hot and sweaty.