Extended Fasting in Vegan Land: TrueNorth Health Center

(Suzanne Leigh) #1

Hi Gang,
For this, my second EF, I decided to go the medically supervised route. Last fast (January of this year) i broke with a small keto meal after 4 days due to terrible lower back pain, resumed for another 2 days during which the pain was unbearable, so broke for good.

The last fast, short though it was, gave me fantastic benefits. The physical symptoms I’d been suffering (inexplicable abdominal and breast weight gain, thyroid and sex hormones whacked) improved and my constipation became manageable (2 big swigs of mag citrate and 1.5 doses of Miralax every night). My hope is that this fast will optimize and cement the benefits from fast #1…lose more body fat, lose more of my ‘cantaloupe boobs’ and ‘cure’ my constipation rather than having to continue to treat it long term.

I didn’t find many options for medically supervised fasting facilities in the US. TrueNorth was the best option for the value. I’m impressed with the staff, very professional and kind, and with the other guests who are all supportive. It helps to be surrounded by other fasters. I’m shooting for a 10 day fast; I’m now 3 days in. At times I feel like 10 days will be easy…maybe I’ll even go for 12-14…and other times I’m counting the hours. If anyone has psychological tricks or practices that make sticking to the fast more tolerable I’d love to hear them.

TrueNorth uses a vegan re-feed with no salt, oil or sugar. You can imagine how that sounds to me, a long term LCHF/keto girl. But I’m very insulin sensitive, not a diabetic, and not obese, so I’m going to give it a go for the few days of re-feed. TBH I’m thinking “OMG I’ll get to eat some fruit (I’ll stick to berries) and and beans and even a baked potato :star_struck:” Who knows what will happen to my glucose during this time…I’ve been LC for so long I imagine it will spike terribly, and that I’ll be ravenously hungry, but I’m willing to try a n=1.

If anyone has questions about the facility feel free to shoot them my way, or any questions for the docs here. They are uber knowledgeable about fasting because they have so much experience. Thus far I’m quite happy I made this choice.

(Tom Seest) #2

I have a friend that has done two 21 day fasts there and loved it. They will give you the Vegan / Vegetarian pitch but the facilities and monitoring are excellent.

(What The Fast?!) #3

Ooh, tell me more!! Are you saying it’s manageable with those things, or that you were taking those things (miralax and mag) before and that now you don’t have to?
I just started taking Miralax (one dose) nightly, waiting for results currently.

(Karen) #4

Best of luck for your fast! They sound very supportive.

K

(Suzanne Leigh) #6

Thanks for the encouragement and support @Adam-Zoe, @Keto6468 and @tdseest!!

@KetoLikeaLady, I’m saying that after the fast I did in Florida, I was able to become regular by taking 2 big swigs of magnesium citrate plus 1.5 doses of Miralax at night. I also found that eating a bit lower fiber diet helped me. I know that goes against conventional wisdom, but too much fiber stopped me up even more. The same goes for too much fat. I find when I eat 75%+ fat I’m also super constipated. In that instance my poo gets like peanut butter, soft but nothing pushes it out. Fortunately the mag citrate and miralax solved that. My hope is that with this fast the root of the constipation will resolve, whatever it is, and I can resume eating, and pooing, with no need for daily poop aids.

I am almost through 96 hours. It’s great to be surrounded by others who are fasting, and to have the docs and staff around to support and answer questions. I have not had the terrible back pain this time, fortunately, so I’m grateful. I’ve seen the food they serve and it looks FANTABULOUS!!! I haven’t had any quantity of beets or tomatoes or carrots, let alone a single grain of black rice, a bite of lentils or more than 100g sweet potato in 2+ years and when I see it on people’s plates I drool. :grin:

(What The Fast?!) #7

This is totally me!!

Not this though - my situation is like…STONE. Seriously. Painful.

I’ve done a lot of fasting and it hasn’t seemed to help yet. I just started taking Miralax nightly (along with my continued dosage of Magnesium citrate/malate combo (in pill form). It doesn’t work right away for me, but a few days of taking it daily seems to work. However, it does also make me gassy, which I don’t love. BUT, better that than constantly stopped up.

…oh, the wonders of :poop:

(Suzanne Leigh) #8

@KetoLikeaLady My poo used to be like little stones, and that was miserable. The fast I did in florida in January is what changed that. Afterward, with the miralax and liquid magnesium citrate, it got soft and regular: that was eating lower fiber and about 60% fat. When I went to a higher fat diet it wasn’t as good.

Are you doing extended water fasts? Or IF? or…??

I also think that besides the purely physiological things that we try to manipulate, there’s a huge mental component to constipation.Maybe it’s stress, maybe it’s ‘being too anal’, maybe it’s uncertainty or a need for protection or a foundation. One woman in this forum suggested that I think about ‘letting go’ of certain things. That was during my last fast. I think the mental ‘reframing’ plus the fast plus miralax/mag citrate cocktail worked wonders. Good luck to you!!!

(What The Fast?!) #9

I do a lot of extended fasting (just water and coffee, sometimes a little HWC). After almost a year of keto, I finally gave in and started taking Miralax a week or so ago. I don’t think it’s mental stress, because the Miralax worked like a charm. I just really don’t want to be dependent on it, you know?

I just got a food intolerance test done so I’m going to be cutting out all dairy and eggs (along with a few other things) to see if that helps. See the full post here: https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/food-intolerance-testing/31544/12?u=yayhowfun

(Suzanne Leigh) #10

I messaged you in that thread. I hear what you’re saying about not wanting to be dependent on the miralax. I’m in the same boat. i often travel abroad for extended periods and I don’t want to have to lug a year’s worth of miralax and mag citrate along.

(What The Fast?!) #11

Yes, same. we travel a lot and I just want to be regular - also would love to not have to down so much salt on the daily. It’s a lot to manage. Incidentally, the thing that makes me regular is including grains in my diet.

(She had one feck to give and that feck is gone.) #13

Keto is a way to reverse T2D but not the only way. Eat to Live (which they’ll be very familiar with where you are) has also been a very successful method. Some people love this style of eating, come off all meds and reverse all signs of disease. Listen to what they have to say. If it’s not for you then follow a plan that does.

I’m happier on Keto and have achieved some amazing mental health results that I’d be hard pressed to give up, but I do respect ETL and what it did for my body.

(Suzanne Leigh) #14

Thanks for this, @Jezza. I’m torn because I love keto…love to eat all the fat…but I do miss potatoes, sweet potatoes, lentils, beans and fruit. I was never a hyper consumer of any of these foods, but just a little would be a fantastic addition to my life. The folks at TrueNorth preach Vegan with No Salt, Sugar or Oil. I’m not inclined to go that route, but I wonder if a ‘zone’ type macro split might work well for me. Allowing me some fat, and some carbs and protein. I’ll just have to feel it out.

Keto worked well for me for quite a while, then something misfired inside me and my health went down the tubes. IDK if my diet was part of that derailment or not. Gut instinct is that it played a role.

(Suzanne Leigh) #15

DAY 6 UPDATE:
Hi gang, the fast has gone well thus far. No nausea, headaches, GI upset or rashes. Have had low energy and some lightheadedness upon rising, and some lower back pain, but not as severe as last time.

This morning my ketones were 7.9 and glucose was 3.2.

I’m down 9.5 pounds in 5 days (started fasting 24 hours before my weigh-in so no pre-fast weight). I now weight 124.8. My goal is 119 so I’ll have some leeway when I start re-feeding. My ideal weight is 123 and my ideal body composition is 20% body fat. I’ve never hit that goal by a DEXA…24% was the closest I got…but it’s still a nice target.

I’m supposed to fast for 10 days, but if I feel well enough at that mark I may continue for a few more days.

(Karen) #16

Goodness, stay safe.

K

#17

@Suzanne_Leigh This is me exactly, the too much fat peanut butter poo. So many people say, oh if you’re constipated just eat more fat. But not for me. Glad I’m not the only one.
You’ve also given me a ton of hope with your coming out of the True North fast with unaided BMs!! (saw this on your other thread). How have things continued? How long do they refeed you at TN?

Also wondering since you mentioned too much fiber being problematic, with your high carb/veg - low fat diet (which is making you feel good and ended your constipation problems) any idea how much fiber you are getting? Your talk of beans and lentils and all vegetables makes me think you’re getting a lot. Any guidance?

(Raj Seth) #18

2 words. Psyllium husk. Fixes in both directions. About as close to a BM Miracle drug as one can get!

(Suzanne Leigh) #19

Hey There @katillac, you are certainly not alone on the constipation issues.

One thing I didn’t try when I was eating 75% fat was taking the oxbile supplements. I was supplementing like a maniac already, and my biology was so far off the rails, I didn’t want to add anything else into the mix. In fact, during the fast I took zero supplements and after I’ve stuck with that except for vitamin D and B12. I sometimes wonder if all the supplements were adding to my constipation issues, but I digress. If you haven’t tried oxbile you may want to do some research to see what you find.

Yes, I am now eating lots of fiber and even still, the constipation is gone. But this is a different kind of fiber than what I was eating when I was keto. Then I was getting 95% of my fiber from nuts, avo, and green vegetables (mostly raw). And yes, I tried the old standbys of psyllium husks, flax seed, and chia seed and they all made my constipation much worse–bowels like concrete. Now 90% of my fiber (upwards of 70g/day now of total fiber) comes from greens (cooked beet greens, kale, swiss chard, broccoli) other cooked veg (beets, acorn and butternut squash), 1 large green salad, and a small amount of lower GI fruits like berries and avo. The other 10% comes from beans and lentils. I’m not a huge fan of beans/lentils actually, but a little does well with my system. Also eating 20g of stewed prunes each day.

My bowels are now like clockwork. 1 nice big poo to start the day, and sometimes another one after dinner.

That said, I’m slowly increasing fats because i’m just too damn hungry eating high carb/low fat. I’m also increasing my protein slowly, so I can rebuild some muscle lost during the fast. Eventually I’m sure I’ll work my way back to more of a keto-ish style of eating, because I like it and it’s so much easier than the wholefoods plant based approach, but I won’t give up the regularity, even if that means continuing to eat some starchier vegetables and prunes.

#20

Thanks, @Suzanne_Leigh.
I’m so happy that things are like clockwork for you! People have no idea how rough it can be when such a seemingly simple thing goes awry. “I won’t give up the regularity.” Yes yes.

70g/day of fiber! That scares me :slight_smile: I think I have the constipation fear of that being so much to come out. I appreciate you sharing the details of the type of fibers and what has been working and is different than when you were doing keto. Did your constipation issues only begin when you switched to keto high fat eating?

I’ve tried ox bile before, didn’t do it for me.

The hunger you mention is what gets me. The way you describe your diet thus far coming out of your True North fast is not something I think I could sustain long term. I crave protein.
I think you have gained a lot of knowledge with this to make your way much better, so that as you add more fat/protein in the keto direction, you can do more of the cooked vegetables that have worked well for your digestion.

Something I want to play with is separating meat/fat eating from vegetable/carb eating. So a meal of only fatty meat, not even low carb vegetables or accoutrements, and then separately a meal of just vegetables/carbs and minimal fat. Or maybe even day to day separation. So the meat/fat can be properly digested without digestive juices being “diluted” by other things, and if they are constipating it doesn’t matter because the next meal will be perfect to sweep it through!

Something else for you to consider as you transition to more fat and protein-- nuts can be super drying and constipating, mainly roasted ones. I can do raw nuts and seeds a bit, but anything roasted is rough. Not sure how much was in your keto diet and if that was a factor.

Keep calm and regular on!

(Suzanne Leigh) #21

Best quote EVER!!

Yes, I agree sustainability is a challenge with this WOE…not only from a protein craving perspective, but in terms of time/effort/planning. With keto you can always eat a few boiled eggs and avo if you’re in a rush, and you can pretty much always find something on a menu. Neither with this WOE.

Since my last post I’ve had 4oz of wild caught alaskan salmon, and 2 farm fresh eggs, and BOY WERE THEY GOOD!! I’ll be adding more over time, just taking it slow and easy as I want the digestion to keep plugging along. I’m still eating prunes BTW, which is as anti-keto as you can get, but again, for now good digestion is my #1 issue.

Yes, dropping 60-70g of fiber into my system would have been a nightmare when I was on keto. But now, with the prunes and the many helpings of greens (raw and cooked) and some resistant starch and various fiber, it’s been good. Yes, I have Monster poos, but afterward I feel amazing. Light and happy…almost euphoric. Who knew?

The constipation started about 3 years ago, well before keto, when I began traveling. 6 months into the travel I tried low-fat, lowish carb, high-protein: NOT a winner. Constipated + gassy + incessant drive to eat, even when I was full. I started keto January 2016 and the constipation changed, from hard, pebbly poo to ‘peanut butter poo’ that simply wouldn’t come out. As if my peristalsis stopped. When I switched to LCHF, but not true keto, the peanut butter changed back to pebbles. In the last 5 months of 2017, combo of LCHF and keto, things were almost at a standstill.

How are you feeling/pooing these days??

(Suzanne Leigh) #22

@brownfat, I’ve got a question for you.

I had a bod pod today, 2 months since the last one. The one on February 19th was a gut punch…it showed 34% body fat. I knew I’d gotten big, but I didn’t know I’d gotten that big, and that was after my first 6 day water fast, so I knew I’d been even bigger before that test was done.

Fast forward to today. I walked into the test feeling great. My clothes fit again, I’m no longer constipated and I’ve lost weight. Sadly, the test revealed a 33.6% body fat composition. :disappointed_relieved: It showed I’d lost about 2.5 pounds of fat, but over 3 pounds of lean mass. Granted, a water fast can burn some muscle mass, but I was shocked to see more muscle loss than fat loss.

Note that before the bod pod on Feb 19th I’d been LCHF/keto since January 2016. I had a DEXA in spring 2016 that showed me at 23-24% body fat (Can’t recall exact number) and another a few months later that showed 26%. I had 4 caliper tests from March 2017 to July 2017 that showed me ranging from 18%-21% BF (caliper always less than DEXA, so I assumed I was still in that mid 20’s range). Only last fall when the wheels came off did I balloon up.

I’m flummoxed now as to how to move forward. I had a long talk today with my Integrative Medicine doc and she wants me to support my thyroid with some supplements I’ve taken before (plus I take levothyroxine and T3, but my T3 is low even with supplementation), dandelion tea to help with estrogen detox, and reinstitute IF, which is harder on a higher carb diet than on keto. She’s great, but I feel like she doesn’t have the best handle on building muscle and losing fat in a biologicially challenging environment. I know you are an expert in this.

if you have any salient advice, or could point me to some research or experts, I would be very appreciative. Thanks!