Episode 145: Jimmy & Christine Moore

(Tom) #1

I have a soft spot for Jimmy Moore. It was through him that I found Jason Fung and the whole Keto world, and then of course the dudes, this forum, and delving more deeply into the science at Low Carb Downunder events.

However I’ve always found his presentation of the science to be pitched at the lowest common denominator - not suggesting that he doesn’t know the science, it’s how he presents it (and it works, it got me into it after all).

I was desperate for @carl or @richard to shout SHOW ME THE SCIENCE during the interview, especially during the bits about putting pressure on parts of the body to diagnose issues with the pancreas. I’m skeptical, and a study or two would have helped open my mind. I’m less skeptical about the gut bacteria, but even then the science was light on compared to the normal dudes standards.

Still an entertaining episode though, thanks!

(Bob M) #2

I very skeptical about gut bacteria. I tried resistant starch in many forms and probiotics for 5-6 months, and achieved only detriments. If there were benefits, I could not find them. The studies are also all over the map, some show a benefit, some do not.

I like Jimmy Moore, though he often has cognitive dissonance. For instance, he complains about people adding butter to their coffee, but at the same time adds butter to his steak. What’s the difference?

I did like The KetoHacking MD podcast, though.

#3

I had the totally same reaction - throughout the Christine Moore bits, I was crying out: ‘show me the science’.

Still, I think that we are otherwise spoiled with the volume of science-backed content we otherwise get on other episodes of the podcast.

(Edith) #4

You should say something to the Dudes. They always have that part at the end of the show requesting comments and questions about the show. Maybe they can include some links to the sources used by Jimmy and Christine.

#5

Yes! Need more science! So glad I wasn’t the only one thinking this.

(Jeanne Wagner) #6

Tommy I’m guessing you have never been to a chiropractor, because they do the same thing with the pressure points. Mine does it every single time I go in, and that a weekly basis. Chiropractors are kind of like the original functional medicine doctors. It’s quite effective.

(Jeanne Wagner) #7

The Nutritional Therapy Practicioner program is full of science. The book obviously won’t gloss over the science-y details too much, although Jimmy and Christine specifically state who their intended audience is with this book. It’s not for scientists. Jimmy specializes in making the difficult to understand, understandable. And there are references you can pursue if you want that nitty-gritty science. He helped bring that understandability to Christine’s book. They could go into all that deep science on a podcast, but remember the podcast is a limited amount of time and so some conventions have to be made. A lot of things were discussed about the book, this wasn’t one subject per se.

(Tom) #8

I made, and make, no comment on the procedure discussed only to say I’m skeptical. Skepticism is and should be a default position and @Carl, @richard, and their guests usually do a great job in explaining the science behind claims. By eating to keep ourselves in ketosis we’re doing something that goes against the mainstream and one of the attractions of the podcast is that the supporting science is explained which is reassuring. Yes it’s a podcast, but listen to some of the other episodes and the chat:science ratio is just right. I felt it was a little off in this one and some claims were made which I would have liked them to dig into a little.

#9

Well, there is a lot about chiropractic treatment that is not backed up by scientific evidence either. There is some limited evidence for effective treatment of lower back pain.

#10

I’m really interested in this topic but skeptical about the science. Is there anything to back up nutritional therapy you can point me to specifically?

(Carolus Holman) #11

This is the FIRST show that I have turned off midway-through.

(Bob M) #12

I stopped listening to the Stephen Phinney one, as in the first 15 minutes, he said two things I think are questionable or outright wrong.

(Edith) #13

If you don’t mind, could you say what you think those two things are?

(outlawpirate) #14

So the pressure point thing… I’m a skeptic and it’s the real deal. Here’s my story… 26 years ago while at the University of Florida, I had my first episode of sciatica. I was a broke college student, so my adult neighbor arranged a barter between her chiropractor and I. I bartered my photography services for his business and family in return for massage therapy and chiropractic care until my back healed. He did that pressure point method on me but in a different way. I am a SHOW ME THE SCIENCE type of person, but also very open to learn new possibilities. If I wasn’t both of those things, i would not have tried Keto.

So picture this… while lying face down on the massage table, the practitioner would have me lift my calf up, bent at the knee. He would ask my body a question while having me try to push my calf back. He would ask my body if I needed to avoid dairy at that time, and I could easily push my calf down. He would ask if my body needed to avoid nuts, and I could easily push back. Etc. Etc. Then he asked whether I should avoid mushrooms for a little while, and I could not push my calf down! And I thought, “Is this a trick? Is he pressing a spot on my leg to make me weak? What sorcery is this? What kind of hokey hippie shit is this?” He understood my skepticism, so then he had my fiancée change positions with him. My fiancée pushed against my calf and asked the same questions, and my body reacted exactly the same way!!! What!!! I was a skeptic but my calf could not push back against my own skeptical fiancée when asked about mushrooms. So I laid off mushrooms for a couple months and felt better. Go figure. I still don’t know what sorcery it is. Lol!

I have continued massage therapy and chiropractic care for decades. Actually, my fiancé became my husband (now ex), and he later went to massage and neurosurgeon therapy school after graduating from college. So… color me
Skeptical and a believer all with one crayon on this topic. I can’t explain it. But I can’t deny my own N=1 experiment.

And I can’t deny that in life I have learned that when I listen to my body, all is well. And that includes living a ketogenic way of life.

(Tom) #15

Ultimately that’s all that matters, and I’m pleased you found results. I guess really I’m curious as to how all this works. That’s what attracts me more to the Jason Fungs and the Dudes of the world compared to the Jimmys of the world - as they explain the mechanisms and pathways.

Ugh, at the risk of getting kicked off the internet. YUCK. Mushrooms are the sporn of the devil so I’m not at all surprised. :smiley:

(Jeanne Wagner) #16

@TNorth here is their association web page. https://nutritionaltherapy.com/nutritional-therapy-practitioner-ntp/

(Jeanne Wagner) #17

There are many N-1 stories out there about the benefits and clinical observations of chiropractice care, just like for us ketonians/low-carbers/carnivores. I get treatment because it does make me feel better, and they are in the know about nutrition and salt too. But like any other type of doctor, every one has their own assessments and opinions. Just becaue there is little scientific data to prove benefits, does not mean it is not effective. That uphill battle has been being trudged up by those doing keto and low-carb for decades. Let’s not become overly critical or skeptical of other healthful methods out of turn. When you know something works, you know it. You may not know why, but it does work. So you keep doing it and passing the word along. Try it, you might like it.

(Jeanne Wagner) #18

There is no asking out loud of questions with my chiropracter. There is the touching of points… all along my arm, shoulder, back. If I can’t push back, there is a problem with what that area represents. But there is even more advanced procedure, with pressure points and actual asking of questions. It’s kind of like that 20 questions to get to a pinpoint (doesn’t always take many questions to ferret it out). Sometimes events earlier in our lives become lodged in our bodies, and that method will release it. I haven’t done that yet, but want to. I’m afraid of what might come up, though!

#19

I clicked around a bit. It’s quite sparse on the science. See the reference list on this, for example.

#20

There is plenty of science, established as well as emerging, to back up low carb and keto diets. Honestly that’s what convinced me to try it. There is way too much woo out there peddled by people who want to take the money of those who are desperate for an answer. I’m very sincere in wanting to see any evidence that nutritional therapy is the real deal. But it’s telling that so far no one has produced any.