I think the 100th post should be reserved for the OP. oh wait…
Eating Fat to Satiety
brownfat
(Todd Allen)
#104
Martin, yes in Phinney and Volek’s book they present the stages of a ketogenic diet and in the first stage it is true that dietary fat is lower and it increases in the following stages. But what you seem to have missed is that this isn’t so much a target but just what tends to naturally happen for most people when they heavily restrict carbs and keep protein in moderation. Also, not everyone goes through all the stages. People who are thin are likely to start in the final stage “maintenance”. The more excess fat one has the more likely they will go through more of the early stages.
Most of us acquired excess body fat over a long period of time. There is no need for a crash diet to lose it asap. Just reversing the trend from gaining to losing and having patience is all that is needed. The keto diet when followed as suggested reduces hunger for most of us without reducing our metabolic base rate and some degree of caloric deficit occurs automatically or at least with a modest sustainable level of effort,
You have your own theory that your appetite is less eating a high protein moderate fat diet. Test it out. If it works for you then great,. But it isn’t the well formulated keto diet as described in the book you read. If you want to know if the keto diet will work for you then you are going to actually have to try it. If you really want to try it but are genuinely struggling to do so then these forums can offer a tremendous amount of support. But you are unlikely to find much here without desire to actually try the diet.
mikki
(eat more)
#105
are you joking?
nuts, seeds, fish, coconut, olives, cheese, and bacon are sauces/oils? who knew?
you are only reading what you want to see…be reasonable
ask for help and then argue the help…if you already “know” more than everyone stop asking for help…that is what is disrespectful.
super offended over being called a troll? (classic deflection btw)
that is what you are presenting to this forum so if it walks like a duck…
you’ve been given the benefit of the doubt on 4 different threads…apparently undeservedly so.
fish or cut bait…
ps i just had tuna salad…nary a pat of butter in sight
Martin_Arnold
(Martin Arnold)
#107
The work of Dr Phinney.
It’s also supported by a number of keto groups who also cite his work as evidence, including #ketosavedme on facebook. Are they wrong? If so cite your evidence
Martin_Arnold
(Martin Arnold)
#108
Dr Phinney doesn’t recommend a specific or moderate protein intake. He lists a broad range.
The reason he gives for a lower fat intake initially is that you have body stores to use, which is how you lose that weight. Obviously if you have less weight to lose you will need more fat, I said this. I referred to maintenance explicitly. Most of us don’t start in maintenance.
The entire internet keto community is a mass of contradictions. If people here want to assert that you shouldn’t eat a smaller amount of fat to lose weight, then provide science. I’ve cited a source: Dr Phinney has credentials in this area. Random people on the internet don’t.
If your dietary fat is high enough, you won’t lose weight because you will never touch those stores to use for energy. If you eat more than your body needs for fuel per day as well then where else is that excess going to go if not be stored by the body?
Bahrutile
(Dustin Cade)
#109
It comes down to N=1… find what works for you, after 7 months on keto I’ve not perfected anything, I’ve lost about 60ish+ lbs but I wouldn’t say I’m dialed in… I feel good, I’m losing weight and I’m not struggling to maintain this diet… maybe I’m closer to figuring this out than I think… still want to lose another 160ish lbs, I figure it will take the better part of 2 more years… I’m ok with that
MarkGossage
(bulkbiker)
#110
Martin… if you don’t like what people say then please just go away. If you aren’t going to listen then why are you asking “random people on the internet” for advice… You are obviously not interested in what they have to say so please just piss off. you have previous form for doing this on other forums… It gets you nowhere and just wastes everybody’s time.
KetoFied
(Jaidann)
#111
OK I gotta say for the first time here this is the first poster who has annoyed the stuffin’ outta me. I may get in trouble for this but I gotta say what I gotta say!
Dude, you got this victim thing down to a science! “It’s everybody else! I’m just being misunderstood!”
I over shot my goal weight Friday morning eating exactly what these good folks have been trying to tell you for days. I’ll say it again. Maybe this just isn’t a way of eating that agrees with you and your mindset. That’s cool! Then move on and do things your own way. You do you. You have that right.
Now … to figure out how to block …
Barbara_Greenwood
(Barbara Greenwood)
#114
From the Community Rules:
“When you see bad behavior, don’t reply. It encourages the bad behavior by acknowledging it, consumes your energy, and wastes everyone’s time. Just flag it. If enough flags accrue, action will be taken, either automatically or by moderator intervention.”
Daisy
#115
Have you heard Phinney speak? You must then surely have heard him talk about the need to eat fat and you simply cannot fear fat and be keto. He orders a plate of butter to go with his steak. Enough said.
carl
(carl)
#116
Martin,
@richard and I spent the last year linking to evidence on our podcast at http://2ketodudes.com. You do not have to listen to every episode, as the links are listed on each page. However, it looks like you’ve missed a few really important studies. We follow Phinney’s recommendation of the range of macros, and consider him to be a pioneer. Not sure what gave you the idea that we had an argument with anything that he has published.
However, reality can’t be reduced to “always eat less fat” or “always eat more.” We strive to understand the mechanics behind this very complex system (metabolism).
So, please, go through the science that we’ve linked to, and let’s get back to a real conversation about specifics.
Carl
Martin_Arnold
(Martin Arnold)
#117
Phinney eats butter like that because he’s in maintenance. He’s not looking to lose weight.
Daisy
#118
and he also talks about fat to satiety at every stage of the process. Once you get satiety signals dialled in, everything takes care of itself. It really isn’t that hard. I never track unless I am doing a specific experiment like purposefully overeating fat for a week to see how much weight I gain. Zero. In fact, I lost weight.
richard
(Richard Morris)
#119
That’s not what he says. He says “when we take someone who is … 25kg overweight and we tell them to cut their carbs to a level that allows them into nutritional ketosis, and keep your protein moderate - for this person that would be maybe 80-100g of protein a day intake, and tell them don’t restrict your calories … eat fat to satiety don’t go away from the table hungry. – most people will spontaneously limit their caloric intake to 1400-1500 kCal/day. So it’s not on purpose, they are not counting calories”
Dr Phinney goes on to say “But at some point, just instinctively, the persons lost 10 kilos they get into this creeping case of ‘it takes me a little more to become satisfied’ … people will SPONTANEOUSLY add more fat and creep up to 1800 kCal, Weight loss slows but they are still losing weight”
They are SPONTANEOUSLY adding fat as their body fat is less able to support their caloric needs. They are not deliberately reducing caloric intake to burn body fat.
He goes on to describe the slide containing his evolving pie chart.
“So in this graphic down here [the Phinney pie chart] what we’re trying to demonstrate is if you look at what you are eating … this says 25% fat because 50% of your energy is coming from body fat. As you add more calories from outside, that proportion of body fat progressively creeps down to zero as one gets to long term weight maintenance”
But the question you have to ask yourself is what is the driver of that? Am I supposed to RESTRICT my calories coming from the outside short of satiety … OR am I supposed to use SATIETY to stop at the point where I am adequately fueled and that spontaneously restricts the incoming calories. Well luckily Dr Phinney answers that question with …
#"The primary driver here is SATIETY.
“As people lose 25kg of body fat, they will naturally develop a fat hunger. What is fat hunger? well if you’ve eaten what was a reasonable portion, and you are thinking ‘I’m not that satisfied’ and you open the door of the fridge and the Butter is looking good. That’s fat hunger, and we have to coach people to recognize it. … Their intake naturally evolves over time.”
BTW that breakfast he was talking about was not the one Dr Phinney shared with me and Dr Taylor in Sydney. This video is the Melbourne event a day later. But I saw him order a bowl of butter the dinner the night before the Sydney presentation.
I noticed this meme developed by Mike Julian and you’ll see it around the keto groups on Facebook.
If people on KetoSaveMe are telling people that the Phinney Charts mean you must calorically restrict to lose weight, then in the words of Mike Julian’s snarky meme they are “morons”.
Because as you’ve just heard from Dr Phinney that is not what those charts mean.
I wouldn’t, of course, call anyone trying to help people with a ketogenic diet a moron - but a MEME must be correct, Right?
Ketoing for over a month, still confused
No Weight Loss
NewImprovedMe
(Newimprovedme )
#122
@Martin_Arnold I have not read through all of the posts so I don’t know if this has been mentioned yet and this may sound counter intuitive… have you tried fasting?
I know for me when I fast it takes less to get me satiated when I start eating again. The occasional fast could help.
richard
(Richard Morris)
#123
was I rude to you?
As far as I can tell Mike Julian’s Meme was rude to you, and everyone else who thinks that Dr Phinney has been telling people to calorie restrict to lose weight.
But I would never call anyone a moron, especially someone who is trying to help people save themselves from Diabetes.