Eating Fat to Satiety

(Michelle) #41

great video!!

(eat more) #42

how long have you been pursuing keto?

honestly no one can answer this for you…or me.
we all have loosely similar goals (some ppl it’s diabetes management, some ppl it’s fat loss, some ppl it’s muscle building with fat loss, some ppl it’s improved energy, etc, etc etc) with the common tool of reducing carb intake for insulin reduction/hormone regulation.

we have to figure out what works for us as individuals. we can only share information and experiences.
some ppl can’t tolerate dairy or artificial sweeteners…some can.
some ppl need to be as close to zero carb as possible…some can go much higher than 20g.
some ppl choose to fast…some don’t.
it’s just different for everyone.

“there is no rulebook” :smiley:

#43

In the discussions concerning GNG and protein affecting ketosis, people often overlook the other fact of protein being insulinogenic and even though protein only has 50% the effectiveness of stimulating insulin relative to glucose, Amy Berger contends that the rate of GNG is insufficient to cause anti-ketogenic effects in the typical time-frame experienced by someone consuming protein, so whether or not that is true I think we need to consider that it is protein raising insulin that’s causing a reduction in ketones.

PSMF or supplement with fat
(roxanna) #44

Interesting, I have noticed that smell. So that means if protein is too high we’re burning protein instead of fat??

(Richard Morris) #45

If you have more amino acids than you need for maintenance, then you burn it for energy instead of other substrates (glucose, fat, ketones). I think the only exception is alcohol which goes to the head of the queue.

To burn an amino acid your liver must first turn it into a carbohydrate. All amino acids have a nitrogen atom in an amine group (NH2) … it’s how the amino acid gets it’s name. One (Cysteine) also has a Sulphur atom. So there is a bunch of chemical manipulation (which takes energy to run) just to turn these things into fuel for the fire, but it also makes chemical waste. Mostly ammonia but also methylamine which has a fishy odour ( and if you watched Breaking Bad you’ll know it’s a precursor to cooking meth ), hydrogen Sulphide better known as rotten egg gas.

Source: https://books.google.com/books?id=gmls9dj1rEoC&pg=PA20#v=onepage&q&f=false

(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #46

:zornface:
There is no keto rulebook

(Jaidann) #47

You know I might have to try the spontaneous thing. Usually I’m a planner but my body has not been very cooperative. I certainly didn’t plan Keto LOL. I’m just such a food hound I’m afraid I won’t have the staying power. Guess I won’t know for sure unless I try it! Thanks for the spontaneous idea :slight_smile:

(Barbara Greenwood) #48

Do you know the Serenity Prayer? The existence of different opinions and interpretations falls into the category of things you cannot change.

Things you can change include how you actually eat… which piece of advice you try out. Most people will acknowledge that what worked for them will not necessarily work for you - but you’ve got to eat something, right?

back to the fat to satiety thing. Is the problem that eating fat doesn’t satiate you? Or that it does but you’re worried that it’s unhealthy? Or something else I haven’t thought of?

(I want abs... olutely all the bacon) #49

I disagree on the not changing the question point.

Whether fat or protein are more satiating is not an issue I contemplate in improving my health and choosing my meals within a ketogenic lifestyle, neither are calories. I don’t restrict calories on eating days and I lose weight and have improved my strength and endurance while eating more calories that prescribed by all macro calculators. I don’t follow fat to satiety, but I recognize it works for many and I may need to adjust to this paradigm as my body fat decreases.

If ketosis is the path you want to continue eat meals without fat, there is no rulebook that says you can’t. If you have enough fat stored, your body is efficient at accessing this stored energy for your level of activity, and you stay in ketosis eating only protein and carbs with minimal fat you’ve found your personal macro blend that sits well with your palate and interest in calorie restriction.

(eat more) #50

i’m also normally a planner…didn’t plan keto either lol

it’s kind of like cleaning the bathroom or doing taxes…the build up/procrastination is way more than actually doing it lol

(Martin Arnold) #51

It isn’t an either or situation.

I don’t find fat as satiating as is claimed.

I am not 100% convinced that a high fat diet is 100% healthy, I think it’s true that fat doesn’t make you fat. But the science suggests that eating fat isn’t unhealthy, not that is is healthy. Those are two different statements.

So adding huge amounts of fat - 200g a day as some macros recommend for maintenance - is a huge proposition.

More importantly it is not easy to add: covering fat over every meal in order to get what you need just makes the meal unpalatable if it is swimming in fat. And BPC drinks are sickly

(Jessica) #52

Claimed as what? How can you measure your own satiety? It’s a personal thing, either you’re full or you’re not.

My personal n=1 is:
fat alone won’t make my stomach feel physically full, as eg eating a whole head of brokkoli would. But, after a few minutes I feel sated trough fat alone, even if the fat portion on the plate looked small. I also find, that this will last longer, than the satiation I get from vegetables or protein.
Chances are, I overeat on pure fat, because I eat quicker than satiety kicks in.
Since I know this to be true for me, I trick my hunger signals with vegetables. So I can have lasting satiety with minimal insulin effect:
I’ll have a big plate of something green, bit of protein and then add fat to that with a sauce, nuts, cheese, bacon whatever… fat makes everything taste better… no problem with the right recipes!
This way, I get the quick satiety from the volume of the vegetable, stop myself from overeating, but also get longterm satiety from fat.

Again, that’s only true for me. You’ll have to try out for yourself what works best, figure out the right proportion. There’s no shortcut.

(Andrea Johns) #53

If it takes extra energy to convert protein to carb could upping protein intake speed up BMR?

(Barbara Greenwood) #54

Let’s unpack that a bit.

“Isn’t unhealthy” means there is no negative health consequence from doing it, on average in a population. “Is health neutral” would be another way of saying the same.

“Is healthy” means… what, exactly? You could interpret it to mean there is a health benefit from doing it, or again that there is no negative consequence from doing it.

Now, personally, if something comes with no downside but also no upside, that is something I can take or leave. But you’ve also got to look at the alternatives, which in most cases is higher carbs. And for a large proportion of people, higher carbs are problematic. Processed carbs and sugar lead to rampant inflammation, and even minimally processed carbs produce an insulin response and higher blood glucose in those so inclined, which I am.

So, for me, the upside of higher fat is it enables me to eat lower carb. By the use of leafy veg as @JesS90 says, I get volume. By the use of fat I get flavour and satiety, without a significant insulin/glucose response. So, I call fats healthy.

And most importantly, I feel good. Great, in fact. Health is not all about statistical models and probabilities. It’s also about what’s acceptable and life-enhancing to any given individual.

(Martin Arnold) #55

What do you mean by volume?

I’m not arguing from a position of claiming expertise. I could be completely wrong and still responding to years of dietary orthodoxy. I can tell you that my local doctor service does not accept this way of eating as anything other than extreme.

(Barbara Greenwood) #56

Back in the day, I used to tell people I couldn’t possibly go low carb because it was the carbs that satisfied me… and part of that was volume - quantity of stuff that takes up space in my stomach. I said that just meat and vegetables would not be satisfying. I said that, without having actually tried it, just by thinking about taking the potatoes away from a plate of meat, potatoes and vegetables. What was left looked dry, boring, and not enough.

When I actually tried it, it was different - and I am so glad that, right at the beginning of my journey, I heard about low carb HIGH FAT, and that the HIGH FAT was an essential part of how it worked. I took away the potatoes, increased the amount of green vegetables and put butter on them. I had about the same quantity of food going into my stomach, but I stayed full for longer because of the fat.

Over time, I found I didn’t need as many vegetables as I was piling on my plate in the early days. And, actually, I didn’t need as much fat as I sometimes added. It’s changed as I’ve gone along. But I would never have found that out if I hadn’t piled all that fat on at the beginning.

#57

It is easy to add fat, there are have been plenty examples given, but you choose not to do it from what appears to be your aversion to fat. I and many others on the forum do not find fat unpalatable and many just love BPC.

A ketogenic diet is low-carb, high-fat and moderate protein, but it sounds like you don’t like fat, so maybe this just isn’t for you. Some people do well on low-carb, high-protein and since eating protein seems to make you not hungry, then just eat that way.

This as the same thing I was thinking. He’s mixing an objective measurement of fat grams with a subjective feeling of satiety which has no measurement.

It’s like asking a firefighter to bring only a certain amount of water in order to put out a fire - maybe the estimate is correct, but I’m pretty sure they connect to those fire hydrants and use more than they brought in their trucks. However for this OP, I’d add that the fireman don’t like the water in the same way the OP claims to find fat unpalatable.

Kind of. Protein actually has 8 calories per gram, but we use 4 calories for calculations because they try to factor in the amount of energy needed to digest the protein. That’s from the CICO perspective, but doesn’t consider hormonal changes, so in the end I think protein will help stimulate BMR at some level, but I think most of the consumed energy is from the thermic effect of food.

Same here, I’ve recently made some mistakes eating too much protein while hovering around 0 carbs and really, really enjoy eating fat instead. Bear in mind that the OP calls fat “unpalatable”.

Agreed with @Becky, if the OP has found something that works, then just do it.

Edit: Fixed some typos.

(Barbara Greenwood) #58

… and forget the effing macros. I can’t bear those posts that say “I’m below my fat macros, how can I add more?” or “I ate 23g of carbs today, how long will it take me to get back into ketosis?”. Your body is not an Excel spreadsheet that has to have everything perfect every single day… even if we knew what perfect was, which we don’t.

(Richard Morris) #59

Protein will definitely increase your total calories out (Total Daily Energy Expenditure). That expenditure is part of what is called the thermic effect of food (or dietary induced thermogenesis).

It doesn’t count towards the basal metabolic rate, which is this black box of caloric expenditure that aren’t Exercise or Dietary induced thermogenesis. Exercise and dietary Protein are factors of expenditure that can be guessed at by an Exercise physiologist. I suspect they came up with BMR to explain the part of the “Calories out” iceberg that is not visible on the surface. And it was assumed that it was static, but As Dr Phinney showed it can go up or down by a relative 25% very dynamically based on energy availability/scarcity.

(eat more) #60

i’m apologize for never asking this but what is your “end goal”?
are you trying to lose fat?
reverse or prevent a medical issue?
just trying something different?

there is more to “health” than the physical body…and the parameters of keto as you understand them seem to not be mentally healthy for you? not presuming to know what is in your head but it seems that you are very conflicted about this way of eating.

I think that the most important thing with any undertaking (woe or otherwise) is that you are happy to do it and happy while doing it.

you’ve been at this for like 12 weeks right?
there is for sure a learning curve.
there is nothing wrong with wanting to understand all of the nuances and what works for other ppl but there is also nothing wrong with modifying it to make life easier and more pleasurable for yourself…doesn’t mean that is what others HAVE to do.

if you are not a “believer” than why continue to try and fit yourself into other ppl’s molds and macros?
it’s been said multiple times, by multiple ppl, in multiple ways…there is no rulebook…you are an adult and can do what you want…you aren’t going to get grounded or jailed if you don’t do what someone else says or fit macros some calculator spit out…they’re “guidelines” not absolutes.
i personally feel like on some days i would be perfectly happy with 200g (or more) of fat…and then probably fast the next day LOL

have you ridden a motorcycle? there is a saying…

“ride your own ride”
which means don’t try and do what other ppl do or tell others to do what you do…you could crash or they could crash…do your thing.

just ride your own ride :blush:

p.s. my BPC’s aren’t sickly and i don’t “cover” in fat…i “add” fat…but that’s my ride