- Foods that contain more omega-3 fatty acids and cholesterol tend to be more satiating. Avoidance of foods that are otherwise nutritious and contain energy as cholesterol or omega-3 may have a negative impact on satiety.
- Monounsaturated, saturated, and polyunsaturated fats all have a negative impact on satiety. However, monounsaturated fat tends to align with the greatest energy intake.
Eat dietary fat to satiety - a seduction?
FrankoBear
#1
MarkGossage
(bulkbiker)
#2
Never had a lot of time for Marty Kendall and after reading that now have even lessâŚ
Inventing âketo liesâ is a pretty poor way of promoting his latest money making projectâŚ
FrankoBear
#3
Cripes, thanks for replying @MarkGossage
But do we eat too much fat, a low nutrient fuel source, if we say, âeat it to satietyâ?
Jimmy Moore is the poster boy for that problem. How is Jimmy? Does anyone still follow him?
Surely the premise is worth exploring.
I like Marty. But, OK. Shall we go with Ted Naiman?
PaulL
(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing)
#4
Jimmy Moore has many problems, completely unrelated to the fat content of his diet.
islandlight
(Laurie)
#5
Whatevs. Recently, while traveling and visiting, I was eating meats and fish containing less fat than Iâm used to. As a result, I had food cravings and would think about food late into the night. Not a good place for me to be.
I prefer to eat âenoughâ fat and not feel hungry. For me, this is a necessity on keto/carnivore, and one of my main reasons for doing this.
ctviggen
(Bob M)
#6
Just listened to this:
The Canteen Podcast, Amber OâHearn
Ms. OâHearn addresses the fat conflict. I think she brings up some valid points, particularly about the âif you eat fat, you donât burn your own fatâ. I think her impression of this relates to the Gary Taubesâs idea of âthe starving fat manâ, where youâre eating more because you canât access your fat.
Her theory is that some people canât access their fat, perhaps due to their hormonal state. Adding fat can correct the hormonal state, meaning they can access their fat.
I think she might be right. I have been finding that when I eat higher protein, lower fat, I can get some angry outbursts. I think this is a lack of fat (aka âenergyâ) in my blood, and I canât access my body fat. Now, these donât happen that often, but they do happen.
I have been adding fat to my lean meat. For instance, last week, I tried goat cheese + lean meat. This was a test of the A2 protein theory, also. (I experienced no ill effects and donât believe I was any hungrier than normal, which are common complaints with âdairyâ.)
This week, Iâm trying the same lean meat but with suet. Suet takes a while to get used to â itâs very chewy.
I may combine the two next week, and lower my protein intake. That is, both suet and A2 cheese, continuing my high saturated fat quest.
I also may then try to add other fats, like general beef fat.
Iâm coming around to the idea that, for some of us, more fat might be beneficial.
MarkGossage
(bulkbiker)
#7
Naiman is even more nuance free than KendallâŚmakes crass generalisations to promote his own ideas⌠Amber OâHearn and he have had some interesting interactions recently on twitter.
Try siting down and eating a block of butter?
But I was more making comment about some of the other "âLiesâ
Which no-one has said everâŚ
Is that a lie? Hard to lose fat any other way ⌠starvation would still likely lead to ketosisâŚ
The others maybe have some relation to reality butâŚ
PaulL
(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing)
#8
We regularly get new members complaining about how hard it is to reach their fat macro, and that may be what Marty is really aiming at.
I suspect the confusion comes from overcompensating for the fear of fat that has been inculcated in us for the past fifty years. There is also a natural human tendency to think that if some is good, a lot must be better. The âto satietyâ part of the phrase gets overlooked. And if you are used to a certain quantity of food on your plate, itâs easy to forget that you only need half as much fat to get the same amount of calories that you got from carbohydrate.
Dr. Phinney talks about âfat hungerâ in one of his LCDU lectures, available on YouTube. He describes how a mere two pats of butter on his steak was enough to satisfy him and the others in the group. For me, the two issues are getting enough protein and getting enough fat. I wonât be satisfied unless I get enough of both.
ctviggen
(Bob M)
#9
What I think is happening is that these people are looking through their own lenses. In the case of Amber OâHearn, for her conditions, ketosis and high fat Iâm sure help that.
In the case of Ted Naiman, he was never fat. He weighs the same now as he did when he was a vegetarian. He never gained 90-100+ pounds, as some of us (like me) have. He also works out, but not extensively. That is, I think you can power his workouts with high protein. Try running a marathon every day, and I doubt you can do that.
His high P:E also confuses two concepts, since he lumps both carbs AND fat into the âEâ. His followers tend to be body builders or pseudo-body builders, who can probably follow his advice.
For Mr. Kendall, he seems to just hate low carb and seems to think heâs ârightâ. While he may have had a bad time fasting, or eating fat, that doesnât mean everyone is like him. (I say this after fasting 36 hours â Sorry, Marty.)
He also uses data from a highly select group of people (those people who follow him, are willing to do what he says, and track everything), and then tries to apply that to everyone else. You canât do that. Just because it works for a select few doesnât mean that it works for everyone.
I think Ms. OâHearn is likely the most open-minded of all three. Kendall thinks â in my opinion â heâs basically God; Dr. Naiman sees things the way he wants to see them; Ms. OâHearn sees people who use high P:E and it works, but also sees people who need higher fat.
ctviggen
(Bob M)
#10
One last comment, then I have to get to work.
These people also talk past each other. When Mr. Kendall laments about âhigh fatâ being bad and how he got inflamed, that could 100% be true. Eat modern chicken, pork (bacon), nuts, salad dressings (particularly bought from a store), nut butters, youâre getting tons of PUFAs. Then, there are those who actually do have an issue with âdairyâ, add that to the list.
But when Ms. OâHearn advocates higher fat, sheâs talking animal fats. And generally not rendered ones, like tallow/lard, but actual fat from the animal. And she tends to eat a lot of ruminant meat (though others, like Siobhan Huggins, do eat pork fat).
Same with Dr. Naiman: he can think fat is bad, again because we can be overloading our high PUFA fat cells with more PUFA. (In fact, how do you know his high P:E diet works â to the extent it does â because it lowers PUFA levels? You donât, and thatâs one plausible mechanism.)
Itâs like âinsulin resistanceâ: unless you define what this means, two people can have complete discussions about this, without realizing theyâre discussing two completely different concepts.
âFatâ might not be âbadâ, though the type of fat might be.
Fangs
#11
I am so over the eat fat to satiatyâŚBUT articles.
everyone is trying to control your individual body down to some micro managed gram number and it is stupid.
Satiaty is not healing. It is about your hunger level and your body tells you to eat XYZ til I say you are full and great fats/protein is what your body is wanting for the best nourshiment and when it get what it needs, you hit satiation. Your hunger cues are asking for fatty proteins and how much it needs to fill you up is just where you are on your healing journey. Some might need more or less on their personal journey and their timeline on their healing the body plan.
Healing is what gives you thisâŚas one heals the body, it will ask for more fat, you might gain some weight, you might lose some, you might just stay even for a long time as your hormones reset and heal and your body changes then it is when your being satisfied and not being hungry cues are beginning to balance outâŚfat is SO super important but it is per individualâŚtheir time on a way of eating changeâŚtheir healing and medical issues they start with and their personal lifestyle and how much exercise/movement etc. and more come into play.
there is never a one size fits all that âtoo much or too littleâ fat is some kind of epic math calculation that one sets on and finds healthful bliss forever.
bodies change as they heal and reset. Our eating needs will change also from needing higher fat for whatever reason your body is asking for it to some days we want to eat lean cause we âwant itâ and our bodies say donât eat alot of fat today-----ie, I as your body doesnât need it.
listen to your personal body and cue off thatâŚno person and a graph with pretty colors and useless stats are ever gonna be the right fix for anyone.
can we get some tiny good advice or facts from this stuff that is thrown out there from âthe so called perfect expertsââwell sure we can but it isnât all that much and best to listen to your own body to truly show you what you need, when you require it.
Eating good animal fats is never the problem for most 
it is the âextras and moreâ we have wrapped around us that usually are the culprit.
lfod14
#12
That doesnât mean he doesnât have a ton of issues that (are) related to it! 2 things can be correct. Last time I saw him (in real life) he fell of pretty damn bad. His diet sure as hell wasnât under control.
lfod14
#13
I agree, if I ate fat to satiety Iâd be a round as I am tall. Fat isnât unlimited, keto doesnât change that. For those that fill up when they eat a childâs amount of food thatâs great for them, not everybody is like that. I can EAT!
OgreZed
#14
Me too. I didnât get to nearly 700 pounds because I didnât eat much.
But I think it depends on the definition of satiety. For me, any way of eating that leaves me hungry all the time is not going to be sustainable.
The big advantage I have with keto is that Iâm no longer ravenously hungry all the time. But I still have a bottomless pit of a stomach and could eat almost any amount of food you put in front of me. For me, satiety means I no longer have the compulsive urge to keep filling that bottomless pit.
On any other restrictive diet, I never lasted longer than 6 months. Hunger would lead to cheats, cheats would lead to binges, and binges would lead back to old eating habits. Right back where I started, except I weighed more than when I started.
If I eat the wrong things on keto, intentionally or not, itâs easy to get right back on track. That episode doesnât lead to the binges.
lfod14
#15
Agreed! âNormalâ peopleâs definition of satiety is very different than us former big guys (or ladies), I think very literally. Plus for me at least (it seems many others as well) are more satiated by protein than fats. To me, wonderful salty fats just keep me eating. Protein will stop me as some point. I think the reason I was able to transition to my TKD/CKD ways without going off the rails was almost tripling my protein.
Shinita
#16
I am sorry, satiation is one of my favorite topics⌠And itâs so wonderfully complex!
I always say itâs very individual what satiates people as I saw that all my life. We see it in this forum too, one person gets satiated by any fat while I must avoid added fat just to avoid serious overeating. Some people can overeat fatty meat while itâs the most satiating thing in existence for me (as far as I know).
The 240 kcal satiaety experiment is odd to me. Give me 240 kcal using anything and I will be wildly hungry, small meals do that to me. Okay, maybe almost pure fat would make me not very hungry and probably nauseous⌠My hedonist self maybe can suppress hunger if the food isnât tempting at allâŚ
Cholesterol doesnât help, I clearly eat way too much on my 10+ eggs days⌠Egg isnât so bad for satiation but 10 eggs easily leaves me hungry, itâs little food, some fatty meat is way better!
(Oh my, I just wanted to see the cholesterol of pork and google immediately provided something about pork making us fat and clogging our arteries so we shouldnât eat itâŚ)
My newest theory (I made it today :D) that pork jowl (at least the kind I use) has magical properties and itâs the best for fat-loss for me⌠Itâs a bit tricky though as I eat it 1000 kcal per 1-2 minute(s)⌠I didnât use a clock but it had to be around that, I just tasted it a little⌠Itâs insanely dense and super good. But it takes away my ABILITY to eat for a very long time. Or close to that, of course I could eat, itâs me, I almost always can eat easily except before noon but I donât need any urge to do so and itâs actually harder to eat than fast⌠Perfect satiation, I only have this with meat (okay, this is mostly fat tissue bit it does have meat in it so itâs some very fatty meat. anyway, fat tissue is satiating to me, rendered fats are the problem). I can reach satiation on any woe but this is still special, better and donât require overeating ever.
I too easily get hungry again. Itâs super rare that I eat lunch and I am not hungry 1-3 hours later, maybe 4 if I am lucky. But not getting hungry even after 7 hours? I am very very happy with my pork jowl at the moment. I just need 3 hours more and I had OMAD today!
Whatever is oneâs idea of satiation is⌠Reaching any of those definitions is tricky for some of us. Carnivore got trickier but before it I simply needed 1000-2000 kcal for my first meal, lunch just to stop being hungry⌠With worse food choices or on hungrier days it could be more but 2000 kcal is a beloved limit of my body, I rarely went over that even with cakes (cakes are kind of satiating items for me but I ignore satiation if I want cakes. itâs a blessing I ate so much cake on keto I got bored of them maybe for good⌠but definitely for years. of course different cakes have different satiation effect but itâs not like I ever would willingly eat cakes before I got satiated with some protein-rich meal and the huge amount of fat in cakes help to balance out the hunger-inducing effect of carbs. potatoes are WAY worse but apples are the absolute worst :D. thatâs my SO but he gets satiated with any cake for 8+ hours just fine, he is the rare one where satiation is based almost only on energy intake. we tested many 1000 and 1200 kcal breakfasts in the last decade and the result is always similar. 8% or 95% carbs works the same. okay, apples alone make him super hungry too but one doesnât eat a ton of it anyway. I badly need fatty protein to get ANY chance to lose my hunger, the more carbs I eat, the more fat I need and it usually lasts for 3 hours).
Actually, I can stop eating even while not satiated, sometimes satiation comes later, like 2-3 hours⌠If I know I ate enough, itâs usually fine. My problem is getting hungry again and again and again and it WILL happen with small meals (itâs only a problem on carnivore sometimes, I donât normally do small meals) - or medium meals with carbs.
The worst was when I had to eat every 2 hours on carnivore (my record was getting hungry, eating one egg and getting very satiated for hours. but it was usually meat that made eating more impossible)⌠But my body adapts. So even for the same person, the satiation response to the same food can be very, very different. I had a time when I ate as much as I could, all the time I was able to (and boy, could I eat⌠all my life⌠even as a lil gal, I ate a ton quite often, I have some impressive memories) and still underate. Of course it was super short-lived, itâs me and my body with its addiction with getting a lot of energy every day. It never stays confused for long.
Reading the comments, I feel very lucky that I canât massively overeat fat compared to protein (while minimizing added fats and low-protein dairy, I quickly learned they balloon up my calories easily without changing my satiation). My body likes balancing things out anyway. But my remaining items (except the minimized stuff. sometimes they get out of hand a bit and thatâs not good) are quite satiating, be it fat or protein, not like I could eat one without the other.
I just need good timing (i.e. not eating many times a day. 1-2 sounds best), much more exercise (for many reasons) and I will win 
If I could afford it, I would eat more beef and mutton but I mostly eat pork (sometimes turkey or duck as they are even cheaper - and eggs, of course. my new record is 14 on the same day but itâs normally just 6-8, thatâs a cute amount along with 0.5-1 pound of meat!). Hopefully it will be good enough. It definitely feels quite good.
Meat has the wonderful stop sign too, for many of us. Itâs no need to wonder about hunger or satiation⌠We happily eat and suddenly we must stop. Thatâs it. Very clear sign, I love it! Not all meat are the same though, I never had this with fowl I think. And I get enough of liver before I can experience this.
PaulL
(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing)
#17
This is similar to my experience, except that my stomach does get full eventually. I well remember being full to the literal bursting point with pasta and still wanting more. On keto, I lose interest in food at a point where I estimate my stomach is about half full. Plenty of room for more, but Iâve had enough.
Not to say I donât have an emotional or addictive urge to eat, even when not hungry, because I do, but thatâs a very different thing from actual hunger. Fortunately, keto makes it easier to resist such cravings, or to divert them into a healthier channel.
Selllow
(Anthony)
#18
I think that for myself protein is a major driver of hunger, as in I wonât be satiated until I get enough of it. I wonder if this is partly why I got so heavy on the SAD, which is fairly low protein.
FrankoBear
#19
Iâm currently trying a carnivore approach. I have eliminated added fat. The fat comes from what is in or on the whole foods. That has increased the ratio of protein to fat in my interpretation of the WoE.
As an observation, despite hunger satiety, I get stronger cravings for sweet foods when I increase the protein in the mix. Itâs an interesting observation to note as I can recognise the difference between hunger and cravings.
Lowering dietary fats, I think, can unmask or potentiate food addictions. Recognition of the cravings might be used as a lever to work on modulating food addiction urges to allow change for the better over an extended time period (may be years). A food therapy is a dose of higher fat food, or pure fat food, for example high-fat dairy, which has an apparent sweetness to my perception, as a replacement stop gap. But there is risk on overdosing on the treatment.
Selllow
(Anthony)
#20
I have had the same experience. I interpret that as having enough protein but craving energy, essentially your macro ratio is off. Fatty cuts of meat are fairly inconsistent macro wise, likely so too are ones day to day macro requirements.
Usually for me it isnât much, a tablespoon or two of cream in coffee, little bit of cheese, or few squares of dark chocolate generally satisfy the craving.