Dr. Phinney's take on fasting

#121

This guy is into bodybuilding and fasting. The first link is about a 9 month experiment which included lots of fasting, with pics and bodyfat %. The second link is a day by day account of a fast:

https://www.alexfergus.com/blog/body-by-science-high-intensity-training-review-my-9-month-experiment

(Julia Wilson) #122

Have you ever had a dexa scan? They are considered the gold standard of body composition. I have used many other methods before including an InBody, which, as corroborated by others’ anecdotal experience, seriously underestimates body fat %. According to an InBody I am 15% BF, according to my dexa scan I am 22%. I would recommend seeking out a dexa scan for comparison as I suspect you are probably not that low. I will also add that I have lost my menses as well at 22% BF.

(Melanie Armistead) #123

I did a 5 day fast and had my resting metabolic rate measured just before the 4 day mark (around 92 hours). My resting metabolic rate was 1654 calories which is in the normal rate for my height/age/size and about 50 calories/day above the estimated figure that had been calculated from my body composition results.

(Jackson ) #124

Hello guys ! Happy to have u in my life anyways I’m on my 2nd day of water fasting my question is I feel I dnt burn a lot (metabolism disorder since I was anorexia when I was 18) now I’m 30 so I’m ok and I nthg with anorexia anymore ! My question is I’m on keto since November 2017 and never lost one inche … I decide to go for fasting 3 days and then break my fast with avocado for 11 days everyday I’ll have avicado and mct oil in my coffee and that it ! Again my question is do u think my metabolism with the water fasting for 3 days will Let me burn less and less (usually I dnt eat more than 1200 calories I can’t and if I do I’ll gain weight ! I’m type of people who can lose in one day and lose in one day water and bla bla ! ) my weight is 55 kg around 122 lbs or less and I’m 5,3 164 cm and my total fat is not low I’m sure more than 24 … usually I gain muscles quickly even when I only walk I gain muscles especiallly from y legs ( even once my nutrition told me plz stop exercice just walk bcz ur legs look muscular … two questions: first do u think my metabolism will slow more and more bcz if 3 days fasting ? And another question I want to do my exercice do u prefer not during fasting ( my workout is hitt running 30 min and walking for 60 min and my heart rate during my walking session usually it’s 140 (I have polar monitor ) do u think it’s better to have less heart rate or higher ? Especially if all I want is to lose weight ! I would love to have a clear reply for a help my ketones level are good sometime 0.5 sometimes 1.5 but I realized my glucose level not so good sometimes 100 sometimes 87 bla bla I knw abt cortisol thing and how ranges change but just giving u in idea abt my experience thnxxzzxz neeeed a reply plz

(Jackson ) #125

Uffff too long sorrrg guysss :joy::woman_facepalming:t2:

(Andrew Roberts) #126

I have completed 6 days of a 7 day fast and done 4 hard swimming interval workouts and chin-ups were easier than ever. I don’t think I lost any lean tissue because I rocked those workouts and chin-ups. Must be some Human Growth Hormone there. Just think of human evolution. Does it make sense that
any hunter/gatherer would get weaker when his life depended on the next bison? I think it’s ridiculous to say this. Surely, the weak hunters didn’t pass on their genes!

(Vladaar Malane) #127

This a necro post? I could careless what Phinney says, what other posters who refuse to believe think…

Ive done IF and extended fasting I have not lost muscle mass in fact I am gaining strength. I workout with carb loving supplement taking buddies and we gain about the same rate in strength. But they have a significant belly.

(Suzanne Leigh) #128

What I find interesting about Valter Longo’s fasting mimicking protocol is the macronutrient breakdown. In his book, he shows 1,100 calories on Day 1 with 500 calories from complex carbs, 500 calories from healthy fats and 25g of plant based protein (plus misc supplementation) and 800 calories days 2-5 with 400 calories from complex carbs and 400 calories from healthy fats. I found an online reference to his work that is more personalized. Day 1, calories are 4.5 to 7kcal/lb of body weight (10% protein, 56% fat and 34% carbs), and Days 2-5, calories are 3 to 5kcal/lb of body weight (9% protein, 44% fat, 47% carbs).

The lynchpin for autophagy in Dr. Longo’s work seems to be very low protein intake (and oddly allows for a higher relative intake of carbs).

(Janet) #129

Excellent new half hour summary of Dr. Phinney’s concerns about extended fasting (over 48 hours) presented at the Breckinridge LC conference. With a DietDoctor membership, you can watch the talk through yesterday’s LiveStream https://www.dietdoctor.com/live-stream-low-carb-breckenridge-starting-now
Some points made; Early and on-going loss of lean tissue, BMR/metabolic rate progressively reduced, Nitrogen (protein) loss, Mineral imbalances, Medication issues and Refeeding syndrome.

(G. Andrew Duthie) #130

From what I understand, Phinney is mostly working with lean folks unlike, say, Fung.

@Brenda may have more to say about this, but I think I’d be inclined to go with Fung on fasting given his rather significant body of clinical experience on the subject.

(deanne ) #131

Do you gain weight back that you lose?do you find your metabolic rate slowing post fast?

(Janet) #132

Brenda described her results with fasting to him in the Q&A. As with any nutritional advice, individual response varies, and he cautioned giving fasting advice without considering potential adverse effects. Sure Brenda and the Dudes will have more to add from private conversations at the conference, but anyone can watch Dr Phinney and the Q&A now on the LiveStream replay. Dr. Phinney has 30 years of clinical experience, and my doctor, Dr Westman has 20 years, so I value their cautions about extended fasts. Megan Ramos spoke Sunday, and there were more questions in that session’s Q&A about BMR, might a lower one have a benefit? I don’t have a dog in this fight, but had seen this thread before and wanted to add these questions about and Dr Phinney’s newest summary of evidence on the impact of fasting.

(Adam Kirby) #133

I am definitely questioning whether extended fasting may cause metabolic rate drop across the board even in the obese. And maybe the benefits are still worth doing, but people should be prepared for this side effect and plan to overeat afterwards to compensate.

(Robert Hollinger) #134

isn’t that the point of FEASTING between fasts?

(Michel Labelle) #135

Is it me or is everyone missing a bit of the point. There is a great discussion about this in the Obesity Code Live Q&A episode.

Episode12-16x9-768x432.jpg768×432 72.6 KB

http://obesitycodepodcast.com/live-questions-and-answers/

Basically, Dr. Fung is clear.

  1. Fasting is a muscle - you need to work up to it, or just like lifting weights or running a marathon you will hurt yourself without sufficient practice. And that takes time. Stick to Time Extended / Intermittent Fasting until you have the practice and experience to do the longer fasts.
  2. The longer more extreme the fast - then the slower and more gentle the return needs to be, so don’t plan a huge feast once you are done. Instead, ease back into normal for a day or two, then go to the larger feast if you want.
  3. Any Extended Fasts longer than the typical IF every other day scenario, needs to be a specific tool that you use. Like the marathon, don’t run one every day/week, but space them out, give your body time to adjust and recover.
  4. Refeeding Syndrome is real, but it is typically a result of the body switching back to energy storage vs. energy extraction you’ve just gotten it used to. The key is giving your body the tools on re-eatting (potassium etc) that it has been depleting and now want’s to re-balance and store (causing a double dip/low). So watch your electrolytes, have smaller re-feeding meals that are higher in easy to consume fats and be kind to your body after a longer 3+ day fast until you are fully back to normal.

So in summary,

  1. train up to a longer fast, don’t jump in
  2. leverage fat and broth as you train to get your body used to scavenging during your initial IF fasts
  3. use IF AND EF, but in the right ratios and know the EF is a big gun and should only be used once you know how to leverage it, and have enough practice.
  4. never push a fast if you don’t feel well, better to come back tomorrow.
  5. ensure you have properly fed/feasted on fats before a fast
  6. remember to go slow (pace of fasting, length of fasting and approach to re-feeding).
  7. remember salt and electrolytes during, and as you exit your fast.
  8. give your body time to re-adjust on the other side.
(Adam Kirby) #136

That’s my take on the situation. But a lot of people fast and then eat normally afterwards, which may result in inadvertently dropping your metabolism.

(Bunny) #137

Dr. Phinney’s concerns about fasting?

Summarized Transcription:

– Labels fasting as a “fad” saying it will produce major pushback from the health authorities when people start dying suddenly

– Getting adequate fluid, potassium, and sodium with an intermittent fast up to 24 hours is benign

– After 24 hours of no calorie intake, the body starts breaking down protein from lean tissue

– By Day 3 of fasting, the rate of lean tissue loss is equivalent to 3/4 pound per day

– The data on extended fasting in THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO FASTING is misstated

– If someone fasts for three days a week, the amount of lean tissue lost is greater than the amount of lean tissue they can regain in the other four days

– Doesn’t believe that Jimmy’s 10-pound lean tissue loss (according to DXA) during his 28 of 31 day fast in January 2016 was water, claims it would take 40 days of eating again to recover this loss (actually a follow-up DXA two weeks later showed all of that 10-pound “lean tissue” loss was back on my body again—so he’s mistaken)

– When someone fasts for a prolonged period of time, you’re vulnerable to “refeeding syndrome” (WWII prison camp prisoners suddenly died when they were fed copious amounts of food following extended fasting)

– There’s an acute shift in minerals out of the bloodstream into the cells causing an impairment of heart function

– The Liquid Protein Diet is used as an example of sudden death from refeeding syndrome that was reported as happening because of ketones…it shut down the science on ketosis for two decades

– For some people, a 36-hour fast is fine as long as the other 5 1/2 days of eating have adequate minerals (apparent contradiction of his earlier statement)

– We need research that shows long-term, positive, sustainability for people who are fasting to reverse diabetes and reduce body fat that goes 1-2 years

– With two-week fasting or longer, the rate of protein breakdown comes down markedly. First day of fasting produces very little protein breakdown, the rate of protein breakdown peaks on the third day of fasting, by two weeks the lean tissue loss is about one-third pound lean tissue loss daily and at 28 days it’s a quarter-pound a day of lean tissue loss (another contradiction of earlier statements)

– If you only look at urea, then the lean tissue loss seems to be much less but ammonia, creatinine, and other byproducts all make up the lean tissue loss as well so urea doesn’t give the entire picture.

– It’s unethical to write a book telling people to start fasting on their own (and yet we mention to consult with a physician often throughout our book)

– I’m not saying fasting is wrong, but we don’t know what the truth is

– Getting adequate potassium and magnesium is critically important and you’re not getting these when you are fasting …More

(carl) #138

Phinney doesn’t believe in autophagy, the body’s consuming of lean body mass that is no longer useful. He therefore assumes that lean mass “lost” during a fast is healthy tissue. He’s both correct and ignorant at the same time, IMO.

(Heidi Anderson) #139

I thought Dr. Phinney’s argument was weak. I was at the conference. I don’t see how The Biggest Loser relates to fasting. They were on a very low calorie diet. Everyone knows that is bad for you. And using the data from the 5:2 diet. I have never understood how they call 500 calories per day “fasting.” That is low calorie, not fasting. The body responds very differently to fasting vs low calorie eating.

(Bunny) #140

One pound of muscle weighs the same as one pound of fat but the muscle is active tissue so it will burn more energy in a resting metabolic rate (RMR)! That’s interesting!