Dr. Phinney's take on fasting


(Kathy L) #101

How does one know if they have persistently elevated basal insulin load?


(John Nunez) #102

Unfortunately, the only true way would be to get a fasting insulin test. However, Iā€™ve found in helping various people, especially those who are T2D, that if they are stalling on a strict Keto and extended fasting works, then this is a telltale sign.


(chris.coote) #103

All good reasons to Keto! :smile:

One related curiosity though: I hear about lean folks that fast to try to play around with HGH levels. Does anyone out there fast for this purpose?


(Erin Macfarland ) #104

Iā€™m not sure about thatā€¦I am very lean for a woman, and have an extremely high amount of lean body mass. I fast a minimum of 14 hours daily but cannot exceed 24 hours. I wonder if the low amount of fasting I do is enough to stimulate HGH? Is HGH supposed to build muscle? I donā€™t know much about it!


(chris.coote) #105

Iā€™m not an expert in it either (with a BMI around 30, Iā€™m still using fast in to break up plateaus in weight loss). The bits I heard involved peak HGH after day three, with the purpose being to build muscle. It seems odd since from my understanding lean folks shouldnā€™t try to go that long. If it is a thing to, do people fast with fat supplement to get there? (my motivation: Just trying to understand how the body works)


(Erin Macfarland ) #106

I could never make it 3 days, and if I tried Iā€™d lose lean muscle mass, as Dr. Fung describes in the newest fasting talk episode. You might have hormonal benefits from those longer fasts, and HGH increases might be one of them !


(Bart) #107

Yup, newest episode of fasting talk Funk says there is no reason for lean people to do an extended fast. He seems pretty lean and only fasts 24 hours several days a week. I believe that is probably the most a lean person should do to be healthy. Fat fast though may be another route since pure fat does not interfere with autophagy. My question would be, for a lean person who wants to try and maximize the benifits of autophagy is there a certain amount of fat to eat on fasts longer than 24 hours and still reap the benefits of autophagy and minimize lean mass loss or other ill effects of not eating any protein. Fung only treats and mainly speaks about those that have more fat to lose and rarely speaks about those who do not.


#108

It is not true that lean people cannot fast. In fact, just google it and you will find many personal diaries and you tube videos of lean people who have fasted in excess of 3 days. And their fasting reasons are different: detox, autophagy, cancer therapy, HGH stimulation, religious, spiritual, hormonal issues, gut flora problems, etc.

Fat is typically supplemented for those who are lean and need to sustain a fast for a few days. And while someone is lean, they can also benefit, as autophagy will help remove old tissue, or even bad tissue like tumours, etc. There are doctors who provide expertise in this area that actually support the idea of a week per year dedicated to fasting to get rid of old and bad tissue.

Doctor Fung uses the example of a Hollywood magician who recently did a stunt where he fasted and was in a glass box for more than 30 days, for spectators to see. That person was skinny when he went in and was skinnier when he came out. Dr Fung makes it very clear that this is an example where long extended fasting was not a good idea (set aside the other agenda of being a Hollywood showman). However, 3 days is not really a long extended fast length, when a lean person has access to eat fat (like spoonfuls coconut oil, bullet proof coffee, heavy whipping cream, etc.) So, lean people can be supplemented with fat to sustain a fast, and the benefits (like of autophagy) can be reaped.

Richard has produced a fantastic calculator that helps estimate the fat needs for people to do fasting, from overweight to lean bodies. So, it provides an estimate of how much fat may be necessary for a lean person to eat while fasting:


(Bart) #109

Read all that stuff and heard fung, also fasted for seven days a couple weeks ago, was hurting bad at day five. Just finished a week of 48 hour fasts with some bone broth at the 24 hour mark, felt much better.

We should probably talk about the definition of lean tooā€¦ I do not question wether it can be done or not ! I know it can. But if at around 13% body fat and if dr. Fung is right and you are only utilizing 70% of energy from body fat instead of 90% then maybe shorter fasts would be healthier. According to the Calculator on Richards post I would need about 155g a day of additional fat to maintain my metabolic rate.

Since being Keto you enter autophagy faster and are already reaping 70% of the benefits of fasting due to the Keto WOE, I for one want to reap the rewards of autophagy and intend to find out more about fat intake during fasting periods since it is known not to stop autophagy. Maybe 72 hours or more of fasting with some pure fat every 24?

I respect Dr. Fungs work and believe him to be one of if not the top authority on fasting, and when I hear the words Len people do not need to do extended fasts it makes me pay attention. I plan on doing more research including asking questions on his blog regarding lean people fasting, autophagy and being Keto because frankly I will not just put faith in any single statement. I like to do as much research as I can, do some n=1 research on myself then come to a conclusion.

Just my thoughts.


#110

I agree. Even the term ā€œfastā€ is ambiguous. To some people it means nothing but water (not even coffee and tea). To others, fat, multivitamin, bone broth is acceptable.

There are many testimonials on the internet (blogs, journals, you tube videos, etc) where there are a variety of reasons fasts are done. Even by pretty lean people. This demonstrates that it CAN be done. Not that is SHOULD be done. It is a personal choice if someone does a religious fast, or chooses to fast as part of a cancer therapy, or wants to include it in their health improvement regimen.


(Meeping up the Science!) #111

I would say you are already there from the sound of it. So what will fasting past 24 hours accomplish that you donā€™t already have? Not being nit picky - itā€™s useful to get the details for what we want to then build a plan of success.

To answer another question of yours, HGH is used by several athletes as a supplement to build muscle and has for some time. Fasting conveys the similar benefit, and itā€™s true that it builds muscle in even the lean. It also doesnā€™t last long when injected - levels peak more consistently with fasting. The question then becomes, when is our lean muscle mass enough? Do we need more muscle mass or less?

Such things are trickier for us as women. We often forget that fat is an organ and for women itā€™s especially important for hormone regulation. Supplementing with fat might be the key if youā€™d like to go past 24 hours.

All of the individuals I know who do extended fasts typically are not at a low body fat percentage, though, even the athletic ones. There isnā€™t necessarily anything wrong with that, either. You already have a low body fat percentage, and you mentioned all your markers of health are positive except hormones.

Your fat may be trying to tell you something. :slight_smile:


(Meeping up the Science!) #112

Your posts have brought up some interesting idle thoughts Iā€™ve had on and off.

Most religious fasting is not prolonged. There are Buddhists that fast 18+ days, but that is very rare. Like, probably less than 5% of Buddhists do it. Depending on tradition, you may eat up until noon and then not after - sound familiar, IF people? Many other religious fasts involve abstinence during the day and then breaking the meal later/at night. Most Hindu and Christian fasts are not long and prolonged, either. Curiously, they maximize autophagy and hormone release. Many allow certain foods and disallow others and still consider it ā€œfasting.ā€ Whether accidental or more than coincidence, I cannot say (and do not care), however I find it interesting, nonetheless.

At any rate, being a Buddhist myself and having fasted for long and short periods of time, I would not worry too much, my friends who cannot fast long. I have a lot of trouble fasting post-op, and while it can be annoying, in the end it doesnā€™t bug me when I think about it. I listen to my body and stay in-tune with it. Lately I have been running my body ragged working crazy hours, and I think it wants me to slow down and appreciate its efforts rather than push, push, push! I listen, eat some fat or food, and just fast again later. I thank it for letting me know what it wants me to hear.

I think fasting works best with body mindfulness. In fact, I would argue thatā€™s the ultimate point of fasting and the penultimate psychological benefit. We become more aware of our body and we learn to listen to it speaking. Most of the time we are on autopilot. Fasting teaches us to listen.

Listen to your bodies, and love them. You only get one, and it is worth cherishing.


#113

Dr. Valter Longo developed/patented a Fasting Mimicking Diet (FMD) that Iā€™ve referenced in another thread thatā€™s intended as an adjunct for cancer treatment and anywhere autophagy is beneficial and although the exact details are not public, we know it is 5 days long and recommended once per month for people needing it.

People have been able to infer that the FMD is roughly equivalent to eating a small avocado in the morning and one in the evening with a concentrated ā€œgreensā€ supplement, so it provides about 500 calories per day almost all of which is fat.

Dr. Longo has spent a lot of time researching this, so I think his protocol of around 200-250 calories from fat, twice a day is probably the upper limit before it interferes with autophagy and itā€™s what Iā€™ve been using for my n=1 experiments.

Iā€™ve done this approximation of his FMD with avocados twice and my Glucose Ketone Index (GKI) was under 1.0 the first time and around 1.7 the second time.


(Erin Macfarland ) #114

Oh absolutely and clearly I need to be careful since my hormones are already compromised. Because I have amenorrhea my body already thinks itā€™s starving to some extent despite my ample energy intake. So context is everything. A lean man can probably sustain a longer fast than a lean woman without incurring negative side effects that outweigh the benefits of the fast. Following advice blindly is not a good idea


(Dustin) #115

@stratocatblue do you do light resistance during your fast, or do you lift hard?


(Julia Wilson) #116

My question is what defines someone as lean? Can someone provide a body fat percentage for men and women to identify the range of what a ā€œleanā€ person is. I am 22% body fat and intent to do a 7 day fast soon. Is that ill advised?


#117

The points made here are basically not discussed, at all by anyone, relative to discussions on fasting for the obese. I would love to hear from some fat-adapted lean persons who seek to fast for the many benefits of fasting. Do they eat fat up to their energy expenditure (starting with a base of the number of kcals from their bodyfat)? Do they fatten up on purpose and then fast?


(Richard Morris) #118

Body Fat percentage under 15% is usually in the lean range. ā€œLeanā€ is a cosmetic term not really a biomedical one.

How much energy you get from your body fat is not really related to your BF% but rather total mass. Letā€™s say that 22% is really 22 lbs (assuming your total BW is 100lbs for easy math). That would give you a maximum of 31.5 x 22lbs = 693 kCal / day. If that 22% is really 44 lbs (now assuming your total BW is 200 lbs) that would give you 31.5 x 44lbs = 1386 kCal/day.

693 kCal would be really tough. Could someone do 7 of those? I donā€™t know. I think Iā€™d struggle. 1386 kCal however is almost a normal calorie counting weight watchers style day. That second person is going to have an easier time of it.

But lets say your total body weight was 50 lbs and you had 22% body fat, now weā€™re talking about 11 lbs = 346.5 kCal and that would definitely not be a good idea.


(Jessika Nilsson) #119

I found a quick chart for body fat percentage, as different percentages applies as guidelines depending on gender. Given that Richard says under 15%, which I guess is for men, I would say the equivalent number for females are beneath 22%.


(Sara S) #120

As you work(ed?) with a knowledgeable keto doctor on this, may I ask you what he tells you regarding this specific woe and amenorrhea? Iā€™m still recovering from your same issue, but gaining weight didnā€™t help :(, so really not sure which way to goā€¦ carb ups, go for higher ketones hoping for hormonal healing, etc.
Thank you, Erin!