Dr. Phinney's take on fasting

(Erin Macfarland ) #61

I was referring to her statement that she currently undergoes three day fasts, after having lost all that weight. Not trying to ruffle feathers here, just trying to understand how fasting works for different people. When I have gone 24 hours before I get a kind of manic energy towards the end then I crash. Then I’m ravenous for days after haha

(Bart) #62

I think people need to remember that fasting is just another tool in the bag for being healthy, not a necessity, especially extended fasting. From what I have read there are many benefits from fasting other then weight loss or breaking a plateau but it does not mean that if you do not fast you can not be perfectly healthy and be keto. Fasting is not a requirement for being keto. I think people need to listen to their bodies, as we hear so many people including Dr. Fung preach. If 18-6, 24 hour, 2 day, 3 day 10 day fasts are all you can do before your body says stop then great, you are fine. What does your body tell you, what does your lipid, glucose and inflammation tests say? Just as some people are perfectly healthy and happy having extra weight on them and being metabolically healthy while others may want to get down to athlete levels of body fat and be metabolically health. Is one goal right and one wrong? I believe the metabolic health is what is the most important. If you fast and feel good doing it then great. If you don’t but feel and are perfectly healthy without it in your life then don’t do it.

I believe I saw something interesting in the book Jimmy Moore and Dr. Fung wrote about fasting that said simply by being ketogenic you reap 70% of the benefits of fasting, without even fasting. From what I also understand is that many of Dr. Fung’s patients are not keto (I know he preaches and encourages that lifestyle) and maybe those that reap the biggest reward of all from fasting are those non-keto folks, after all we are already getting 70% of the benefits. I highly doubt anyone here would go off keto in order to benefit more from fasting.

I just want to reiterate, listen to your body. Fast if you want, for as long as you want, or not at all. Do not compare your fast duration with those of others, all our bodies are different. If you are living the keto lifestyle you are already way ahead of the game.

Keto ON!:sunglasses:

(Larry Lustig) #63

I agree, but that hype is terribly misplaced and I’m beginning to get a little worried. I saw a post a while back in which someone condemned themselves for being “weak” because they broke a fast earlier than planned – after 7 full days!

Fasting may have a role to play for some people with some conditions (insulin resistance and significant weight to lose) but it should be emphasized that it is not a part of the ketogenic diet. For you, and others who are, if anything, _under_weight fasting may well be counter-indicated. In extreme cases, it can even be dangerous.

This week’s podcast, in which Ivor Cummings discusses the role of adipose tissue as a signaling and storage organ reinforces my idea that a truly healthy weight may well be ten or so pounds advice what most of us think it is and that having to little body fat may also pose a significant metabolic risk.

(Erin Macfarland ) #64

I agree! I guess that is what I’m referring to, the idea that you “have” to fast in order to do keto or that you’re bad somehow if you can’t do it for multiple days. What I love about keto is that it’s the opposite of all the other diet noise out there, that revolves around shaming and restriction. I hate to hear people beating themselves up. And while there obviously is great benefit to fasting for many people, it can also be easy to fall prey to the almost glamorization of fasting that’s the result of charismatic figures like Dr. Fung, and Jimmy Moore, who many people follow religiously. While I think these people obviously have a wealth of knowledge it sometimes feels like in listening to them, you forget to follow what’s best for your own body. I learned a great deal from my previous experience on keto and am keen to look out for the signs that my health is declining and I need to change things up. As soon as I began experiencing signs of too low body fat again (coldness, lack of satiety even after a large meal, lack of energy) I made adjustments that included making sure to eat earlier in the day rather than waiting until afternoon. When we get caught up in listening to “experts” more often than our ourselves we miss the chance to really get in tune with what our bodies are telling us.

(Meeping up the Science!) #65

Nah.

I’ve been variations of low carb/high fat for years. Only in the past 5-6 has it been called “keto” really. Even if you do IF, that’s fasting. There is a benefit for 1-2 days for autophagy, but you don’t even need to do it that often for help.

We are always the experts on our own body. I always encourage clients to disagree with me if they feel they must, because while I am educated and have clinical credentials, in the end it is their life and they live it. I may see things they don’t, however I never have to live their life.

Erin, I would determine what your ultimate goal is and then work backwards from there making a plan/habits. What is your ultimate goal?

(Alex Dipego) #66

Fasting is indeed a tool and that urge to eat at the 24hr mark makes perfect sense. I get it consistently and I know what’s happening. My body is speeding up its metabolism because it’s preparing you to eat. It’s saying, “hey! Get up and find food for me!” It’s giving you energy to “hunt” for food.

That’s not all fasting does though, it clears bad proteins, helps rebuild brain cells, rebuild your gut flora and remove bad bacteria. Helps blood sugar and insulin sensitivity. More than weight loss benefits come from fasting, we must remember this.

(Erin Macfarland ) #67

I want to avoid disease, have good energy, mental clarity, and eat yummy food :grinning:

(Rick) #68

Additionally, Jimmy also stated in the complete guide to fasting book the DEXA showed a loss in lean mass in his abdominal area which Dr. Fung speculated wasn’t muscle, but visceral fat. This was later validated by a repeat of the DEXA scan.

(Bart) #69

Sorry if this link has been shared already. Here is another good interview with Dr. Fung. He touches on many of the topics we discussed in this thread regarding fasting length, body composition, age , autophagy etc. If you are worried about how long you are able to fast for, or feel like you should be but can’t seem to last more than 24 hours, it may help to listen to Dr. Fung again.

here are a couple things he talked about,

*Fung himself only does 3-4 24 hour fasts a week and rarely does extended fasts. He does it more to maintain weight and to give himself more time to get things done by not having to take the time to eat lunch etc. He additionally says since he is at the weight he wants to be at and is not a diabetic there is no reason to fast any longer.
*People following the ketogenic diet are more then likely to experience autophagy sooner then those who are not
*Bone broth may stop autophagy from taking place, yet pure fat may not, so if autophagy is your goal you may want to avoid the bone broth if you need a pick me up and find some fat instead
*People who are a bit older or who are lean should maybe not fast as long
*Lean people will burn more lean mass than those with extra pounds due to less fuel (fat) being available (makes sense)

and more… nothing new here, just a different interviewer and something if you have not read his books or seen many of his interviews.

(Erin Macfarland ) #70

Oh no, that is really helpful!! Thank you! Great info!

(Crow T. Robot) #71

No doubt, and that makes a difference.

(Stephanie Hanson) #72

I doubt she’s 12% body fat. It generally takes extraordinary effort to get to 12%. Even my favorite fitness guru isn’t 12% and she’s an exercise maniac. I’m 25% (by impedence testing) and it would take a lottery win to get me the time and resources to go down to 12%. The only reason I would want to do that is to stop menses. I hate shark week. But that opens a whole other can of worms. When I fast, I track my GKI. I’m shooting for <=1. If you track your GKI, I bet you could fat fast on some level and get the autophagy benefits you want.

(Erin Macfarland ) #73

Wow that’s pretty critical. I use a very accurate machine called an InBody. It says very clearly I have that amount of BF. I’d be happy to snap a pic for you. I have no menses, like I stated. I’m very aware that is a low number for a woman. I just tend to get very lean on keto despite ample amounts of food. I’m also an athlete.

(Stephanie Hanson) #74

Please don’t take my comments as criticism. I’m simply stating that I doubt Megan Ramos is 12%. Therefore she can fast a little longer. The only women I know who can cut that low are professional bikini competitors and they only do it before competition. One of them at my gym is currently in cutting mode and aiming for 8%. What she does to get there is crazy dedication. And I can’t imagine it’s healthy on a long term basis.

I fast for autophagy. I track that with GKI. It’s the only way I know of to deductively know you’re chewing up those bad cells.

(Erin Macfarland ) #75

Thank you for that, I’m kind of sensitive about it, at my lowest the last time I did keto I was 6%. I could have died, but I had no idea at the time it was dangerous. You only hear " leaner is better!!" So I have to be very careful to mind my health. It doesn’t take me working out for hours a day to get this lean or severe restriction. But I don’t want to compromise my health in the long run

(Stephanie Hanson) #76

I was just looking at the InBody site. Interesting stuff. Do you have them done somewhere or wear the wrist band?

(Erin Macfarland ) #77

I belong to a pretty high end gym and they have several there for members to use. It gives you very detailed info about body composition, inflammation, BMR. It always tells me I need to add 8 pounds of body fat to be in the low end of normal range. But my weight is “normal " at 5’7” and 128 lbs. I have lots of lean muscle mass…and some extra "jiggle " courtesy of my two pregnancies! Do I don’t look nearly that lean. I was ten pounds lighter than I am now when I hit 6% BF and I looked like death

(Stephanie Hanson) #78

I keep trying to get a price on the 770 so I can approach my gym about purchasing it. That’s awesome.

(Erin Macfarland ) #79

It is!! They’re very handy

(Larry Lustig) #80

Not so, and I think the evidence is mounting that even the “correct” body weight and fat percentage is actually too low. I recall an all-cause mortality study that pretty convincingly found that about 10 pounds “extra” body fat (extra in this case meaning above the accepted desirable weight and BMI) was the sweet spot for survival.

That makes some degree of sense on it’s own but after listening to @thefatemperor, @richard, and @carl talk about the critical role that adipose tissue plays in metabolic signalling I’m really pretty convinced.

While American culture celebrates extreme leanness in many other cultures a few “extra” pounds is not considered un-sexy. In fact, from a point of view of good health, they’re probably right and we’re probably wrong.