Dom Dangostino says get *some* carbs? How many do you shoot for?

(Phil) #1

Hey, need help optimizing daily carb intake:

Quick summary: Not a diabetic. Keto major success so far. 1 month in, no cheating. No refined carbs or sugars of any kind. Completely leaned-out my BMI after only 1 month. Went from 177 lbs down to ~164. I’m a male, 5’10", so this an optimal weight. Completely cravings free for first time in my life (best part). I can maintain this easy. But: Now I’m trying to find ways to shift the balance of saturated fats towards unsaturated fats (more plant fat, less animal fat). But plant fats almost always include some amount of carbs (like Avocados)

I’ve targeted < 20 Net carbs per day so far. But… I’m noticing a need for more vegetables each day. I’ve started trying to focus one meal a day on fresh cooked vegetables in olive oil. And I typically try to get about 20 net carbs worth of vegetables in these meals. I also listened to a podcast with Dom Dangostino who suggested more carbs per day… approx 50 net carbs. He suggested some fruit, like berries. Still being careful about the #'s…

I’m inclined to think that getting more vegetables and low carb fruit makes sense. This is the only way on keto to get real fiber and nutrient not present in Protein-rich substances.

Just trying to figure out what my daily target should be… thoughts?

#2

The only way to find out is to test for blood glucose and ketones and see what your limits are. Your job is not necessarily to stay to 20 gr carbs a day. Rather you need to find out whether you are in ketosis when you eat x and x and x. Everyone is different.

(Ethan) #3

What exactly is your goal? Why are you seeking more unsaturated fats to replace saturated? Why more plant fats? Avocado oil itself can be used to make all kinds of things. It has no carbs.

(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #4

Zero. Lol

(Phil) #5

I’m not sure that’s necessarily a good idea. Life experience says to avoid extremes, and pursue modertaion. Eating no vegetables or fruits is an “extreme”. I agree with the adjustment back to a healthy lifestyle, which means cutting out sugars and refined carbs, and going back to fat as the primary energy source.

But there are 7 net carbs in a zuchinni… there are 25 g in a sweet potato… a cub of mixed berries has about 8g of net carbs… humans have been eating these for as long as we’ve been hunting animals. Refusing to eat vegetables or fruit because they contain some carbs makes no sense… just like avoiding fat makes no sense…

(Ethan) #6

If you got rid of your diabetes diagnosis by avoiding carbs, I think that makes sense to continue avoiding them.

Also, @Brenda was half-joking. In that light… There are 7 net carbs in a zucchini. I would eat half of one without thinking about it. There are 8g of carbs in a cup of mixed berries. Great, I’ll give them to my son and avoid them myself. There are 25g in a sweet potato. Wonderful. I can let them all stay in the sweet potato instead of ingesting them :slight_smile:

(Phil) #7

My goal at this point is to maintain a healthy lifestyle and weight, pursue exercise goals, and optimize to what seems to produce the best results.

Fat adaption feels really good. I love it. I see no reason at all to re-introduce any refined carbs, processed grains, or sugars. This makes sense, and after 1 month I feel about 300% better.

That being said, when I only eat fats and protein for a few days, something feels off. I’ve got no drive when I exercise, and I don’t sleep well. And I drink insane amount of water… (even by keto standards) And… there’s a lot of good science out there that says we actually do need the minerals, fibers, and vitamins provided by non-starchy fruits and vegetables. Maybe shifting saturated --> unsaturated is not the right goal… but there’s got to a personal optimal balance between (non-starchy/lower-carb) fruits + vegetables and fats/meats.

And like I said, I’ve heard/read enough keto-athletes and doctors (eg Dom Dangostino) who do recommend upping healthy carb intake to improve life/performance.

(Phil) #8

With current food consumption… I’m in Ketosis all the time. It fluctuates by amount, but always in some amount of Ketosis. If I go eat a huge meal of cooked vegetables and olive oil (30gs of carbs), then it will drop low… but then exercise puts me right back in within a matter of hours.

(Ethan) #9

The lack of drive and sleep issues sound like nutrient imbalances: salt, potassium, magnesium. I am not sure that 1 month is sufficient for fat adaptation. There isn’t anything wrong with adding in the things you suggested, but I couldn’t understand the reasoning for saturated fat->unsaturated fat, animal sources->plant sources. I eat a lot of salads and vegetables high in fiber. The only fruit I eat is avocado.

(Olivia) #10

Congratulations on your success.
Have you considered replacing some of your meat with fatty fish. That’s what I have been doing recently. It has a higher percentage of unsaturated fat compared to fatty meat. For example, 100 g of chicken thigh (raw) consist of 16.6 g total fat with 6.9 g monounsaturated fat, 4.5 g saturated fat and 3.5 g unsaturated fat (0.2 omega 3 and 3.1 g omega 6). Compare those numbers to the same amount of raw salmon: 7.3 g total fat, 2.2 g monounsaturated fat, 1 g saturated fat and 1.4 g unsaturated fat (1.2 g omega 3 and 0.2 g omega 6). So 27.1% and 13.7% of the total fat is saturated in chicken thigh meat and salmon, respectively. Additional benefit and the reason I’m upping my fish intake is the high amount of omega 3. However, the downside in this exemplary comparison is the higher percentage of protein in salmon, which one should keep in mind.

(Tammi) #11

Not sure where you’re based but, if in the US, there’s the RDV of vitamins and minerals. You actually don’t need to eat a lot of vegetables and fruit at all to meet those numbers if consuming a varied diet of meat (flesh and organ), seafood, nuts, and seeds. A nod to the carnivore-diet folks for teaching me that.

Still if, like me, you actually enjoy having side dishes, shooting for one per meal is plenty. All of the above-ground, low-carb veggies are fair game for me. But do it because you love veggies, not because you think a meat- and fat-driven diet is somehow not as healthy.

And you may want to check out the latest research on fiber. May actually be better to have LESS than previously pushed by all the carb-deifying recommendations of yore.

#12

You can always try and ramp up very slowly to see how you adapt. Maybe not all the way to 50, try 25, 30, 35… see how things are going.

Opening up carbs just a tad does increase the number of things you can eat. There are plenty of vegetables that I am not eating that if my goal were 30 carbs would be open to having some (if even a smaller portion).

It may make it a lot easier to get in your daily fiber, which I have found difficult at 22 carbs.

#13

That’s great you already have this information about how your body reacts to certain foods. So you know you can flip your body into ketosis even after having x number of carbs. Great. Go for it. The 20 gr carb is a general guideline for people to get started.

You decide how you want to live, and how many veggies/carbs you want to eat while remembering that your goal is to mostly stay in ketosis. So titrate and you will figure it out.

(Todd Allen) #14

Can you provide a link to the statements of Dom regarding carb intake that you want to discuss?

I’ve stopped targeting levels of carb intake and mostly stopped counting too, though maybe once every couple weeks or so I’ll try to enter all my food for the day in CronOMeter to have a sense of where I’m at. I’ve adopted the strategy of tracking daily my blood sugar, ketones and physical performance and tracking quarterly my body composition and biomarkers of health through medical lab testing. The quarterly testing sets my goals and strategy for the next quarter and food choices are guided by daily testing. When I had pre-diabetic blood sugar levels strictly following the guidelines/carb limits of a “well formulated ketogenic diet” was very helpful. But now that my unstimulated blood sugar is typically 60-70 mg/dl and my fasted insulin is very low my goal is merely to limit post prandial blood sugar increases to 20 mg/dl. If I’m sick or stressed my tolerance for carbs is still quite low but when everything is going well, great sleep, no stress, no sickness or injuries, plenty of fresh air and physical activity I can eat low glycemic quality carbs, some days 100+ grams, without concern or issue. Although I’m not following recommended keto macro guidelines tracking and achieving my ketone level goals is important to me and I have no reluctance to say I eat a ketogenic diet and expect to follow my current approach to diet and health with moderate tweaking for the rest of my life.

(Phil) #15

Hey Todd,

Here was the podcast on youtube:

I just realized it’s a bit old though Dec, 2013 (I thought at the time it was recent). So maybe his opinion has changed since then?

But it emphasizes the experimental nature of all this… we’re all experimenting on ourselves a bit. We’re definitely going against the accepted nutritional dogma because it’s clearly wrong. BUT… we still need hard science that proves this.

Check out this NYT article from last year:
https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/01/07/rethinking-weight-loss-and-the-reasons-were-always-hungry/

Research is trending towards the same principles. If this NYT article, the doctor basically puts his patients on Full-Keto for 2 weeks to start… which would get the patient into Ketosis… and then slowly re-introduces “slow carbs”, but completely leaves out refined carbs and added sugars… I’d be willing to bet that even thought this isn’t a “Keto” diet, it’s still putting the patient into Ketosis, and then maintaining a low-level ketogenic state permanently.

#16

My goal is to be in ketosis all of the time (or 99.9% of the time) and not run after a ‘keto diet’. Therefore what and how much you eat will vary. I like the experimental aspect of it.

(matt ) #17

“insane” amounts of water is not doing you any good. Chances are you need salt and other electrolytes.

(Bunny) #18

Interesting contrast?

New study: Unsaturated fat associated with fatty liver disease SUGAR BURNER?
Researchers from the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF), studied two groups of mice fed diets supplemented with either saturated fat or unsaturated fat. Surprisingly, they found that ingestion of starch and the monounsaturated fatty acid oleate led to fatty liver disease, mimicking the effects of a high-fat "western diet."

"Although purported to have many health benefits, including a favorable lipid profile, too much unsaturated fat can have significant adverse effects on metabolism," said lead author Caroline C. Duwaerts, PhD, of the department of medicine and The Liver Center at UCSF. “Our research adds new information to the understanding of metabolically unhealthy obesity and should lead to additional studies focusing on saturated vs. unsaturated fats and macronutrient concentration.” …More

  1. Unsaturated fat associated with fatty liver disease

  2. Study Links Unsaturated Fats to Fatty Liver Disease

  3. Differential Metabolic Effects of Saturated Versus Polyunsaturated Fats in Ketogenic Diets NON-SUGAR BURNER? “…These data demonstrate that a short-term POLY KD induces a greater level of ketosis and improves SI, without adversely affecting total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, compared with a traditional SAT KD. Thus, a POLY KD may be superior to a classical SAT KD for chronic administration. …”

(Phil) #19

Ha ha, yep. Maybe I’m getting more salt and electrolytes inadvertently through my veggie cooking… as opposed to when I do heavy “meat days.”

3 weeks ago, when I was enduring the Keto-Flu, I would drink salt and water, and it would relieve the headaches pretty effectively. So counter-intuitive.

(Phil) #20

That’s interesting, but it just underscores how confusing this all is. There’s so much competing “science”. Trying to separate it all out is so frustrating. We need all this research to start trending towards a similar set of conclusions.

It’s scary how one bad study by Dr. Ancel Keys launched the entire Western world onto a direct path towards diabetes. How do I avoid getting hoodwinked like this again?