Dom Dangostino says get *some* carbs? How many do you shoot for?

(Bunny) #21

Make sure you get enough CHOLINE!

  1. Keto Fatty Liver Controversy, Not Well Known Factors & Known Factors
(matt ) #22

Healthcare got salt wrong as much as they got fat wrong. Go figure :wink:

(Todd Allen) #23

In the methods section of the paper suggesting unsaturated fats more strongly contribute to fatty liver one finds the diets were based on refined sucrose or corn starch plus either high oleic sunflower oil or tripalmitin. I’m not sure it is very meaningful that mice developed worse fatty liver on sunflower oil versus tripalmitin. Unrefined sunflower oil is prone to rancidity and needs care in storage and use. And refined sunflower oil is probably as bad as refined corn, soy, canola, etc.

Maybe if the mice were fed natural foods, say saturated fats from live grubs versus unsaturated fats from fresh, raw whole seeds and nuts they wouldn’t get fatty liver at all? I see this study as yet another “we fed mice crap and made them sick”. Considering our vast wealth of experience of humans getting sick eating crap I don’t see massive value in learning all the permutations of feeding crap to mice to accelerate their demise.

(Candy Lind) #24

Become an educated & critical reader. It’s not easy, but our lives depend on it. Learning how to detect good science from lazy/bad science takes some doing. I must say we have some excellent mentors in @richard, @DaveKeto and others in the keto world. They will keep the wheels between the ditches for us. Sometimes my head is spinning before I’ve even read one paragraph of some of these papers! :exploding_head:

(Bunny) #25

I have heard of the rancidity (you can actually taste it; very bitter stale taste) or oxidation of oils and a doctor mentioned something (on some radio show ages ago) about cutting vitamin E caplets open and draining them into the oil when storing for a while.

…Interesting!

Why fresh is always better for our fat intake choices if at all possible!

(Candy Lind) #26

I doubt that article. KETO has healed many fatty livers in this group & beyond, without any special emphasis on one nutrient. The reason choline is even mentioned there is that a fatty liver can’t use choline properly, not that we’re not getting enough. Choline is found in abundance in keto-friendly foods, especially proteins & cruciferous veggies; as the liver heals, it is better able to utilize it.

(Bunny) #27

I totally agree with you! I like to provide as much info as possible just for awareness purposes so peeps can expand on that!

(Bunny) #28

poor mice :mouse:

(Todd Allen) #29

Thanks for the link. I had listened to that one before but good to hear it again,

(CharleyD) #30

Avocados have around 4g of fiber per 50g of fruit. That won’t impact blood sugar. And the reason most of us gravitate towards the cruciferous veggie family is for the same reason. Their carb content is mainly or exclusively fiber, not easily digested into starch and sugar.

Dom is the consummate self-experimenter though. Acutely aware of glucose and ketone levels and knows how much of what he eats will impact blood sugar and knows how quick he can get back to ketosis from an indulgent meal. Which can be practically instantly with exogenous ketones in his experience.

I also heard similar on his interview with Joe Rogan #994 I believe. I myself target 0 carbs and will have veggies on days after a workout. If a serving of collards and coleslaw don’t cover the craving I may grab some cashews or peanuts later on.

Just listen to your body. Generally speaking at your level of leanness your hunger signals are a lot more accurate than when metabolism is considered deranged.

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #31

Dr. Atkins New Diet Revolution (versions written before he died) recommended that you find your critical carb limit for maintenance by adding 5 grams of carbs/day for a week, and seeing what the scale did. He also recommended adding foods in this manner. The Protein Power Life Plan also recommends this type of approach.

I’m curious about why you feel you need to dump saturated fats in favor of unsats? Many sat fats are very useful to you, and many unsats are not so great. And some of the best unsats (omega 3s) come from, you guessed it, animal fats (fish, grass fed beef, the yolks of eggs from well cared for chickens) and not so great from plant sources (flax has a less useful omega-3 ALA, that converts at a very crap rate to the useful omega-3s).

(Ken) #32

The strict two week approach is right out of Atkins, as the major adaptations take place then, with variations due to degree of initial derangement. For the severely deranged and obese, it can take much, much longer.

I think what you’re looking for is information on Maintenance. In that case, the issue is not to eat enough carbs on a chronic basis to overcompensate glycogen, and thereby begin the process of readaptation back into lipogenesis.

I don’t advocate adding a set number of carbs on a daily basis, as it can easily creep up and get out of hand. I do suggest that whenever you eat significant carbs, for whatever amounts or duration, you then go twice as long VLCHF, so you allow your glycogen to deplete back down. For example, eat carbs for a day, then back off for two. It works well, I’ve never eaten carbs steady for more than a couple of weeks, but have never regained any fat.

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #33

I said weekly. Not daily. That’s how it is in my DANDR 2004.

(Ken) #34

Are you referring to my post? If so, my post was directed to the OP, I should have marked it so.

#35

Personally, I think some (perhaps many) of our keto brethren go overboard and demonize vegetables (and berries and nuts). Why? While carbohydrates are not an essential nutrient, those foods are full of health benefits as long as we don’t overconsume them. And a balance of saturated vs unsaturated fat is ideal. It’s just that we have been overdoing the unsaturated. Variety helps with sustainability. I put one chopped date (yes, one) on my 2 cup spinach salad dressed with warm bacon fat and apple cider vinegar and a few drops of butter toffee liquid stevia. Egads! You ate a date! Yes…yes I did. And stayed in ketosis.

(Jeannie Oliver) #36

Egg yolk is also a good source of choline. I figure, between all the eggs and cabbage that I eat, I should be on my way to healing my fatty liver.

(Candy Lind) #37

It’s all about knowing what’s in there and keeping track. :innocent:

(Tammi) #38

Probably because those who deify vegetables keep telling us that meat and cheese will kill us. ALL PRAISE TO THE HOLY VEGETABLE gets pretty tiresome.

That said, I agree with you. There are zealots on all sides of the food wars. The vegan ones flip out at the mention of meat. The carnivores ones flip out at the mention of veggies. And the keto ones flip out when you put a date on your spinach salad. Humans. Meh.

(Miss E) #39

Actually potatoes have only been eaten for 5000 years. Also hunters had completely different physiological make up to us and they ate that way because they had to not because it was best for them.

Experimentation is key. Go up in increments then if you feel rubbish scale back and you’ll know your optimum xox