Does a tbsp of butter in coffee break a fast and/or autophagy

(Doug) #30

Rich, yes - have samples taken from your body and the number of autophagosomes counted. :slightly_smiling_face: Not practical for almost all of us.

Not sure if you got a consensus answer to your questions, and there certainly is some debate about this stuff.

1 tablespoon of butter in coffee doesn’t seem to really be going to break a fast, so to speak - i.e. even though there are some calories there, the insulin response will be so low as to be negligible, and your blood sugar isn’t going to be raised, providing you’re like most people.

I think the butter may decrease some of the hormonal benefits of fasting, like more growth hormone, but it’s a matter of degree, and if the butter makes it possible for you to fast, versus not fasting at all, then use the butter and be glad of it.

For autophagy, the picture is at least murkier, with some real potential thunderclouds around. Butter has milk solids in it, including some proteins. Ghee or clarified butter removes most of this problem. Milk solids include one specific protein, leucine, that is a very potent inhibitor of autophagy. 1 tbsp, is still a small amount of butter, and the amount of proteins/leucine in that will be very small indeed. Perhaps a matter of degree here too.

(Rich) #31

Thanks, @OldDoug I think I will try fasting the best I can and not worry too much about autophagy at this moment. And I’ll"'just keep calm and keto on!" :grinning:

(Jack Brien) #32

Two things come to mind for me. Butter has small amounts of protein, but coconut oil doesn’t. And insulin can be produced by the body, even at the thought of food can’t it?

(Bunny) #33

No it would not! It would be so temporary to the entire autophagy process that’s already in progress, that it would not make any difference!

(Jack Brien) #34

The Word according to Fung says it does, but he doesn’t say how much or whether it’s relevant. The cepahlic response

(Doug) #35

Jack, on the cephalic response - this is going to vary a good bit among people. As far as breaking a fast - let’s say our insulin does go up a little. The body had previously arrived at a balance, even if insulin resistant - the blood sugar level and the signaling for producing insulin. Increasing the signaling and insulin really is not going to break the fast, in my opinion. What I envision happening is that more insulin will mean some decline in the blood sugar level, perhaps slight, but still tending toward reducing the call for insulin thereafter. The fast continues…

If one is fasting for gaining insulin sensitivity, then this is of course counter-productive, but I don’t think it means the fast has ended.

@Q66, thank you for posting that video - I loved it, and love how straightforward they are about their testing and methods.

(Jack Brien) #36

But is this comparable to taking in fats or coffee? If it is, then the ‘fast’ is broken in the same way as cream in your coffee, a spoon of coconut oil or even a black coffee.

(Doug) #37

I really don’t think it’s the same. Insulin rising then falling, due to the cephalic response, if it does occur, differs from taking in calories. Not to say there are zero similarities, but in my opinion it’s not worth worrying about.

I do think, by definition, that a fast ends when we start taking in calories. Black coffee or unsweetened tea, in my opinion, do not end a fast, any more than does taking salt or other electrolytes… Coffee has some evidence that it stimulates autophagy, so I’m feeling pretty good about coffee, there.

Not saying we should hover above the buffet table all day, making our senses go nuts and perhaps provoking cephalic response, but I can’t do much about hormonal levels which fluctuate on their own. Hunger hormones have about 8 peaks and troughs per day, whether we’re eating or not. I am all for lowering insulin levels, many of us purely need this, and less insulin is better for autophagy, but one can only do so much. On some fasts I think about food a lot, and I doubt that’s a good thing, but some of it cannot be prevented, and racking up fasting days is far more important to me than what my exact insulin level, etc., is.

(karen) #38

When I’m fasting I tend to hang out here more. Yesterday I made the mistake of checking up on the “what did you keto today” thread (recipes and pictures of people’s awesome keto meals). At best, prompted impatience - I want to try these recipes now! and at worst, possibly contributed to a higher hormone peak; 5:30 - 8:30 pm was seriously a struggle. Maybe I’ll go to the movies today instead.

(Jack Brien) #39

You could be right. Sometimes I water fast, sometimes I take in an amount of fat. All depends on how I feel and what I’m doing and both seem to be worthwhile. I’m starting to think that cortisol and stress are larger factors in my well being than I realized. I think I’ll have to do a bit of research there

(Aimee Moisa) #40

What about measuring mTOR? Is that possible?

(Ron) #41

That is actually possible but not at a personal level.

(Aimee Moisa) #42

Darn it, my hubby used to work in a lab.

(grace elizabeth) #43

Huh??? :thinking:

(Doug) #44

Some good information in a related thread: Rosedale and mtor - how do we decrease it?

(Linda Goen) #45

Justin.Traer — I listened to the interview, amazing information. Some too nitty gritty for my understanding, but this is an exciting time to be alive. Also, I now have the answer to my question, ”How long of an extended fast is recommended for morbid obesity?” Thanks!!

(Joanna Parszyk ) #46

I’d agree with this opinion!

(Ning ) #47

Interesting video on the effects of cream, MCT oil, and butter in coffee, as to whether or not it will break a fast.
Becky was not initially following a ketogenic diet, but Keith was, and had been for at least 7 months.
Keith’s results appeared to have been disappointing because he was looking for those magic numbers.
Becky’s numbers were very impressive.

My question (and theory) is, can Keith’s blood glucose and ketone numbers have been registering so low because he is more more fat adapted. If his body is utilizing ketones successfully, the “spillage” into his bloodstream may not accurately reflect his ability to utilize ketones.
I’m hoping there’s is a hail Mary here, because I have been doing ketogenic lifestyle for 1 month now. My blood ketones are all over the map-and showing very disappointingly low numbers (avg 0.7-1.0).
I am doing IF using my bulletproof coffee as a means to get thru the 16/8 fast. I’ve lost a whopping 3 lbs in a month, with a starting BF 26%, but I see a difference in how my clothing fit.

At 5’6” 168lbs, I’m just hovering over the healthy weight limit. I realize the scale doesn’t paint the bigger picture.
I’m also trying a low protein day twice a week to kickstart me into a higher ketosis range. I’m 56, and post menopause.
I’m not sure where (or if) I’m doing something to kick me out of ketosis, while showing low ketones in my bloodstream or if I’m just fat adapted and my bloodstream won’t always show high ketones.
Can one still be in ketosis and show blood ketones in the low range? Obviously weight and clothing fit will be a better judge of that.

(bulkbiker) #48

Why do you find those disappointing? Perfectly good nutritional ketosis…

Yours aren’t in a “low range” though

(Ning ) #49

Hmmm, I’m under the assumption that a better reading should look more like (1.5-2.0). I’m never (and never was) in that range. If I’m in ketosis, it should reflect a bit more either on a scale or in my clothing. And neither are truly budging. :expressionless: