Does a tbsp of butter in coffee break a fast and/or autophagy

(Rich) #1

Hi, thinking about doing a longer fast to gain further benefits and was wondering if having a tbsp of butter in coffee breaks the fast and if it stops autophagy.

Any insight you wonderful people can give would be great. :grinning:

(bulkbiker) #2

Honest answer is no-one knows for sure as autophagy is pretty new science. The current thinking is if you definitely want autophagy then water only fasting is the ā€œguaranteedā€ way to do it.
Butter may or may not inhibit. Itā€™s probably individual anyway so there arenā€™t any blanket rules.
Various people have various views but no-one can say for sure and thereā€™s no way to ā€œmeasureā€ autophagy eitherā€¦

(Rich) #3

Great, thanks! But does it break a fast?

(bulkbiker) #4

Depends on your definition of a ā€œfastā€ which has as many variables as there are fastersā€¦
if you are water fasting then yes
If you are fat fasting then no
I tend to class fasting as not eating anything solidā€¦ so I have coffee with cream, tea with cream or lactofree milk and water with maybe a slice fo butter if really hungry.
Some people do egg fasts tooā€¦ there are multiple varieties and there are no ā€œrulesā€.

(Larsen) #5

I am not an expert, but what I have read, and what I think make sense then yes!

The body will sense fat, and make an insulin response, and the digestive system will start working. In my opinion that is the definition of breaking a fast.

So to be on the safe side, I donā€™t take fat in my coffee, then I dont have to worry about breaking the autophagy.

#6

I agree with only water fast, and put a heavy fat coffee in the mini meal category.

(Sondra Rose) #7

Not in my experience or understanding, after reading a lot of the recent literature.

Fat will only stimulate an insulin response in large enough doses. One tablespoon is not even close!

Autophagy is stopped by a tiny amount of protein, but there isnā€™t any in butter, so you will be fine.

(Rich) #8

Confusing! is there a way to determine if you are in autophagy? So that way I can test to see if my tbsp of butter induces a negative response which knocks me out of autophagy.

(Justin Traer) #9

Dr. Rhonda Fitzpatrick has some very technical talks about a range of subjects and I think during this interview (Iā€™m going completely by memory here) she and possibly her guest believe that autophagy would possibly stop when you even consume coffee, and most certainly if you consumed butter.

If youā€™re doing a water only fast, then I would consider having any sort of intake other than water and electrolytes is breaking the fast.

Time to run some n=1 experiments and report back to us on how it goes!

#10

100g of butter has .9 g of protein

(Justin Traer) #11

Any links handy to that literature? :smiley: Iā€™m genuinely interested in reading it.

(Robert C) #12

In a 2KD podcast there was a question about whether even just black coffee would stop autophagy.

The worry was that there is some really small amount of amino acid in black coffee - which would trigger the protein sensing and halt autophagy.

Dr. Fung reply was basically that - when it really counts (dealing with cancer patients that are looking or therapeutic autophagy) they recommend straight water+salt only fasting. Pretty sure he said they donā€™t know - even about black coffee - so make that suggestion to stay safe.

I did a 5 days of that that kind of fasting - I am a regular coffee drinker and could not skip the caffeine so had green tea. I cannot point at any particular measure but it felt really good.

(Justin Traer) #14

I just did some googling on that & I donā€™t think there is any at home tests for that (yet).

This paper from nearly 8 years ago is talking about using electron microscopes to look at cells and only hints at how to test it in humans and if those approaches are even valuable. (Thatā€™s what I read anyhow ā€“ I have degree in Computer Science, not a biology related degree)

(Randy) #15

Thomas Delauer did a video on what breaks a fast. Just his take of course.

(Doug) #16

I think that fats do break a fast, by definition and also due to the hormonal effects of its ingestion - it suppresses growth hormone, and the greatly increased growth hormone levels from fasting are one big benefit.

Protein definitely slows down or stops autophagy. Iā€™m not so sure that fats donā€™t at least slow it down, either - fat ingestion does have effects on our hormones, and Iā€™m wondering if there is then a cascading effect that may influence autophagy.

Autophagy induced by coffee is accompanied by the inhibition of mTORC1, which represses autophagy in conditions of nutrient availability (particularly amino acids and lipids).

mTOR supresses autophagy, while AMPK (AMP activated protein kinase) promotes it. Both mTOR and AMPK respond to nutrient and energy levels. If we want autophagy, then we want mTOR to be stay quiet and AMPK to be active - and best I can tell the way to do this is not to be eating, period. Salt, black coffee and tea are okay, but fats make a difference.

I realize that mice studies may have limitations as to their application to humans, but looks like there is at least a good case to be made for coffee being friendly to autophagy.

(Justin Traer) #17

Thanks!

I didnā€™t see in the paper on the method of preparation for the coffee, did you catch it? I know other studies have have claimed different results based on if the coffee was brewed vs french press etc.

And itā€™s really interesting to see the graph for the weight loss with regular coffeeā€¦

(Doug) #18

Justin, whatā€™s said is "The results presented refer to a single commercial brand (Belle France) of 100% regular and decaffeinated hydro soluble coffee. Results were confirmed using other 2 commercial brands (Nestle, Lavazza). "

So, instant coffee? ā€œHydro solubleā€ :smile:

(Justin Traer) #19

Ya, I saw that too and I was wondering if they just put it in water and stirred it for a few seconds!

Can we call out the authors of the paper for doing sloppy work on that paper in this regard? :slight_smile:

(mags) #20

Something I have noticed is that I seem to lose more weight if I have the occasional coffee when fasting. Even 1 cup a day makes a difference and seems to take all hunger away. Strangely this works with a dash of milk whereas I would normally have cream. Canā€™t comment on
autophagy unfortunately.

(Doug) #21

The ā€œfats inhibit autophagyā€ thing may be rather tenuous.

Autophagy induced by coffee is accompanied by the inhibition of mTORC1, which represses autophagy in conditions of nutrient availability (particularly amino acids and lipids).35,36

While mTOR activation definitely damps down autophagy, I havenā€™t seen much at all in the way of specific information about lipids ramping up mTOR. The above quote seems to be saying that lipids as well as amino acids increase mTOR activity, but in reading through the two referenced publications, I donā€™t see anything saying that, really. Itā€™s brutally heavy going, too - my eyes start glazing over after a while.