Doctor who recommended Keto says it isn't great as a long term diet



Interesting re kidney stones. I thought per current medical advice that they are caused by a fatty diet???
Ah, per WebMD, common causes include lack of water, too much sodium, obesity, and too much animal protein. Hmmm. Well, w/ keto, one tends to increase water, eat a lot of sodium, and eat animal protein. Your stones were probably caused by too much spinach and fiber!!! :rofl:


I have wondered about it too. I have never been a breakfast eater, I have read some Tim Ferriss and in the 4 Hour Body he does advocate eating 30g of protein within an hour of getting up. I have tried it and while I got used to it eventually and even started looking forward to breakfast when I did moderate carb with CICO I am not sure it made much of a change to my weight. Tim claims his father could not lose weight until he started doing this and then lost 18 lbs in a month. Eating every few hours is a definite no for me. Fung explains that very well that eating often spikes insulin and causes your weight to increase and prevents the release of fatty acids

(Aimee Moisa) #84

I think what might really be happening here is he was trying something for a while, it didnt work, then he made a change and it worked. Which proves we should each be our own n=1. If what we are doing isnt working for extended time, say one year, we should change it up and do something different.

(Diane) #85

I read posts all the time that talk about making changes for a week or two and then declaring the change a failure. I think you need to try things for a longer period than that, maybe 6 weeks to four months at a time.

Edited for typos.

(karen) #86

YMMV, my reasoning is this:

since literally the dawn of life on earth, organisms have been evolving based on the molecules around them. When there was little oxygen, life based itself on consuming carbon dioxide. When the byproducts of consuming carbon dioxide resulted in a changed atmosphere, animals that could utilize oxygen began to appear. Hominids are no different. We evolved like any other animal, re-shaping our biology as we went to adapt and take advantage of the resources available.

This process happened over millions of years. At the dawn of agriculture, when we suddenly began changing the biology of our food at a pace a million times faster than the biology of our bodies could possibly change … well, IMHO, we seriously screwed up.

Cavemen didn’t die at 25 from what they ate. They died of contagious disease, starvation, exposure, exhaustion, accidents, infection, environmental disasters, violence. The majority of the western world statistically avoids / has the knowledge and infrastructure to avoid these kinds of deaths, athough we can be pretty pig-headed about actually doing that sometimes. In this modern, enhanced environment, our biology should let us live healthy lives into our 100’s with some luck and common sense, but I think, because we are not eating the diet we evolved to eat, we’re sick as dogs with chronic diseases by the time we’re in our 50’s, and only living into our 80’s due to medical intervention.

THIS is why I am devoted to focusing on “what cavemen ate”. They ate what humans evolved to eat, they couldn’t have come into existence any other way. My reasoning: I’ve got a pretty good chance of avoiding “caveman mortality” if I’m thoughtful, careful and a bit lucky. If I’m not, I’ll probably die in a matter of seconds-to-days, which isn’t so bad. The most likely thing that’s going to ruin my life and kill me early (but slowly, after years of compromised life) is this fucked up unnatural diet that’s being virtually forced down my throat. So I’m going to do my damnedest to stop eating that crap and figure out what my body actually evolved to eat.

(Sarah Bruhn) #87

(Sorry in advance for the data dump and keeping in mind this is just a quick search on my part)
Ok so here’s what we know from research so far (that I can find, disreguarding animal studies)

The Ketogenic diet is effective at weightloss, treatment of metabolic disorders and neurological disorders. It has better compliance than low fat diets.

Ketogenic Diet in Neuromuscular and Neurodegenerative Diseases
Paoli, Antonio; Bianco, Antonino; Damiani, Ernesto; Bosco, Gerardo. BioMed Research International; New York (2014). DOI:10.1155/2014/474296
A Low-Carbohydrate, Ketogenic Diet versus a Low-Fat Diet To Treat Obesity and Hyperlipidemia: A Randomized, Controlled Trial
Yancy, William S, Jr; Olsen, Maren K; Guyton, John R; Bakst, Ronna P; Westman, Eric C. Annals of Internal Medicine; Philadelphia Vol. 140, Iss. 10, (May 18, 2004): 769-77.

Ketogenic Diet for Obesity: Friend or Foe?
Paoli, Antonio. International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health; Basel Vol. 11, Iss. 2, (Feb 2014): 2092-107.

It appears to be safe short term

Ketogenic diets for weight loss: A review of their principles, safety and efficacy

But we don’t have a lot of research on the long term effects of the ketogenic diet… This is not to say the outcome would be negative, we just don’t have the peer reviewed research… yet.
It has been suggested that it may be hard on the Kidney’s or cause kidney stones (due to excessive protein which we all need is not nessisarily part of the diet)
or can cause calcium and other mineral depletion (hence everyone keeps harping on about electrolytes), We know it effects our lipids but in ways that seem not to matter for cardiovascular health.

Some doctors are worried about the lack of fibre ect which can be delt with via careful food choice and or supplimentation. It is fair for your doctor to say “i don’t know how this will go long term but we know it works short term”.

I personally take a magnesium, zinc, calcium suppliment and take potassium and salt, I also eat lots of green veg (i have seen no research suggesting there is anything in fruit you can not get from low carb fruit and vegetables except maye fructose?) and I bake with psyllium husk and chia seeds. I also take a probiotic because it seems to help with GIT problems, immunity and depression and finally fish oil because there is some preliminary evidence it raises BMR in women.

The ketogenic diet: one decade later
John M. Freeman, Eric H. Kossoff and Adam L. Hartman
Pediatrics. 119.3 (Mar. 2007): p535+.

Omega-3 Fatty Acid Supplementation for 12 Weeks Increases Resting and Exercise Metabolic Rate in Healthy Community-Dwelling Older Females
Logan, Samantha L; Spriet, Lawrence L. PLoS One; San Francisco Vol. 10, Iss. 12, (Dec 2015): e0144828. DOI:10.1371/journal.pone.0144828

(Aimee Moisa) #88

@kib I think I love you

(Doug) #89

@Sarah_Bruhn Nice post, Sarah! :slightly_smiling_face:

Fiber - it’s clearly an individual thing. Some people have trouble with too much or too little, whether keto or not. If one’s digestion and elimination are going pretty well, I wouldn’t worry about it.

This forum has a huge amount of references to the electrolytes, and I think with good reason. That said, I’ve also read personal accounts of fasts 30 to 40 days long, where only water was consumed, followed by blood tests and a complete physical exam, and everything was good. Here too, it may be an individual thing.

If one is feeling good, and there are no identifiable deficiencies, then regardless of what one is doing, I’d say keep on.


Insurance companies? Why don’t they love this? All types, health, life and disability?


Thank you but every link was behind a Griffith University login

(Erin Wilson) #92

Actually, they do! There seems to be some traction in this area. Dr. Sarah Hallberg, of Vitra Health, talks about how insurance companies are starting to become quite interested in treating T2D with her methods (electronic monitoring of glucose in conjunction with a HFLC diet.


That post is a keeper … thanks Sarah !
Loving this thread so far … I’m learning loads !

Thank you all


Any chance we can see this research elsewhere ? Can’t access them right now as it needs a uni login


Funny … was watching Andrew Marr’s History of the world on bbc today and he talks about how humans started to fall rapidly ill once they turned to agriculture and farming … also mentioned that it brought changes to how we look and made us ‘frail’ … essentially it’s 220,000 years of hunting and gathering vs 4000 years of farming and only 50 odd years of the processed junk we get in our supermarkets today … go figure

(Sarah Bruhn) #96

Absolutely, to be clear that last paragraph about what I personally do is based on dubious science at best, it is in order to avoid possible, maybe, perhaps, in a long shot would never happen problems and may not be best for everyone (and might be to a large extent expensive pee) :rofl:

(Sarah Bruhn) #97

Hi! that’s why i put up the full reference in order to allow others to search for it :slight_smile:
I know it’s not perfect as half the time the public can only access the abstract unless they pay but I was just popping up a preliminary search of current articles, those studies are by no means the definative answer to anything. :smiley:

(Sarah Bruhn) #98

There we go I have edited it to link to the same studies through google which should be open access, so they should work now :slight_smile:

(Sarah Bruhn) #99

I have now edited the original post (which i did in a rush because I am supposed to be doing other things lol) the links should now be open access :slight_smile:


The cynical side of me says…

  • If they make 30% on every dollar paid out, wouldn’t they want to pay out more dollars?
  • I worked in the insurance industry for several decades. As one boss of mine often pointed out, “without risk, there is no need for insurance”. :frowning:


I am not sure I understand. They do not make money when you see a doctor, they lose money. If you see a doctor they pay whatever the contracted rate is and you pay your contracted co pay to the doctor directly, the insuarance company does not benefit from that, the doctor does. Or if it is out of network and you even have that coverage which most people do not in the US, they pay 50-70% or less, depending on plan of reasonable and customary after you have met your deductible which varies, again depending on your plan. Any other amounts due you pay to the doctor directly.

As for risk creating demand, people will still get sick, they will get bacterial and viral illnesses, keto is not a cure or prevention for cancer, it can still happen, genetic diseases, accidents. Keto does not confer immortality although I wish it did