Doctor who recommended Keto says it isn't great as a long term diet


(karen) #61

One thing, if it hasn’t been mentioned; cyclically adding whole food carbs is probably more in keeping with a typical ancestral diet (as someone else mentioned, dependent on the location), however, the “natural carbs” available 20,000 years ago bear practically no resemblance to carbs available today. A potato now is not a potato then. Apples didn’t exist in their current form, they’re a carefully bred cultivar. Corn wasn’t corn, and peaches, berries and oranges - even carrots - weren’t sugar bombs. So a “natural” amount of carb over our keto limit might have existed, but it certainly wasn’t the easily achieved 200-300 carb “natural” diet we can purchase at Whole Foods.

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #62

As I said, I would probably peak my carbs at 15% of total calories. At 1800 per day, that’s a whole 68 grams of carbs a day. At 2200 it’s 82. I’m 170 lbs of lean mass without T2DM. I can probably handle that. But gradually. Describing that as returning to a SAD 200-300 is not close to accuracy.

(karen) #63

Yup, my point was just that while more carbs might be ancestrally accurate, the amount of carb you could be consuming if you just decided to go on a “healthy” all natural organic whole food diet with unlimited fruit during your summer cycle would not be accurate unless your ancestors lived in Polynesia.


I think some cannot be replaced. I think no one knows how and what regenerates

The long-standing belief in this field was that the insulin producing cells, called beta cells, are replenished when beta cells actively divide to create more copies of themselves.

UC Davis researchers have identified another type of insulin-producing cell in the islets, which appears to be an immature beta cell shown in red. (UC Davis)

But it turns out there is another cell type in the pancreas that is capable of making beta cells and they look like a teenage, less mature version of beta cells. The UC Davis team identified these cells in mice and in samples of human pancreas tissue. These cells hangout at the edges of structures called islets, which are clusters of beta cells within the pancreas. Upon further inspection, the scientists found that these immature beta cells can secrete insulin but cannot detect blood glucose like mature beta cells. They also found their point of origin: the immature beta cells developed from another type of pancreatic cell called the alpha cell

I think there is a distinction between being able to rejueventate an existing cell or dividing an existing adult cell as occurs in the pancreas or even using less mature versions such as alpha cells as opposed to being able to create completely new cells from stem cells. The pancreas does not have stem cells or so I have read somewhere. There is a theory that in T2 the beta cells become blocked with fat and that is why they can no longer produce insulin. A fast or fast mimicing diet has been shown to unblock or flush out those cells so they start functioning again. In fact that is how to I got to Fung and keto 17 months ago. I had heard that patients who did a very low calorie fast mimicking diet had restored beta cell function and I have a diabetic parent. So I started researching intermittent fasting, found Fung, eventually found keto and then ended up here after Brenda told everyone on Fung’s site about ketofest! and so on


Very good information! Thanks!

(Alec) #66

This was an idea promoted by guess who? The breakfast cereal companies. I wonder why. It is utter bollox.

(Alec) #67

This sounds like CW dogma to me. Can you get him to explain this comment in more detail. What we know:

  1. Meats and fat and other keto foods have more micronutrients in them than fruits and veg
  2. Carbs are clearly non-essential, meaning you do not need them to be healthy.

So exactly what is this doctor chap referring to? I would love to know.

(Leigh Thomas) #68

I fail to see how eating fresh unprocessed food that goes off in usually within a week over eating something that comes out of a box with a shelf life of months is worse for your health. People being sick is big business.

(bulkbiker) #69

That’s a big “If” especially when you consider where the Dudes and many others started their journey down the keto road.


The OP wasn’t asking about the dudes or others; she was asking about herself. That “if” was for her.


Yes, we all fail to see that, and sick folks are definitely big business.
How does this connect to OP’s question?


Something I have never understood, and I am not being flippant, I just would like to find out why so many people reference to ancestral diet when, a) we live very different lives that need from our bodies a different set of skills, and b) these cavemen people died at 25.
As I said, I have no desire to debate on this, I just wonder why all these references to cavemen. Maybe I should read a Paleo book and it would explain it to me.


Yes, I would read up! It’s really interesting. Paleo/ancestral= using evolution as a starting point to look at human biology.

I think the estimates for paleolithic lifespan are 40 years, but that’s with injuries and infant mortality in the mix. I believe it’s about 10 years longer than the agriculturalists at the start of the neolithic.


ok still shorter than our lifespan though?
and what’s the point to study human biology as we live in a completely different environment and our biology may have positively adapted to it?


Well, not shorter than our lifespan if we had the same challenges and stresses. Probably not by a long shot :slight_smile:

Adaptation and evolution take a LOT of time. I think if you look at the health of modern humans you’d be hard-pressed to make the argument that we’ve positively adapted to the changes that have happened in the last tiny (minuscule) sliver of our time on earth.

You can think of it this way: lions evolved to eat meat (and hunt, mate, sleep, move, etc in certain ways). If we capture them and put them in a zoo, the starting point for deciding how to feed and care for them would be to look at the basic expectations of their biology. Would we then have to make changes based on the particulars of their new situation? Yes, probably. But still, the foundation would be pretty close to what they’ve evolved to need over millions of years.

Humans have thrived in many many different environments, so it’s quite different for us. But still there are some commonalities that we can use as a starting point when looking at human health.


Thanks, I don’t wanna hijack this thread with these questions on the cavemen, you have already given me interesting replies and I’ll chew on them.


paging admins! Can we get this last chunk of the thread moved elsewhere, please? Maybe my fault, but somehow we’re on a tangent about evolution. The OP asked a reasonable question and now we’re discussing the age of the earth…


Been KETO 14 months. No longer fat, no longer T2D, blood MASSIVELY improved, and I don’t ever intend to stop.

I no longer look at food as oooooh yummy, I’ll have another, or more. Its just fuel. I’m no longer an addict to crap.


Congratulations! I hope to be in the same place as you are now, in another year!

(Carbohydrate Denier ) #81

I was having at least one kidney stone per month pre-keto. Since I went keto I haven’t had another stone. It’s been 10 months. This is a very pleasant side effect. I do not miss the pain. So I don’t care what they say, I’m not going back. Plenty of evidence supports ketogenic eating as being extremely healthy. Plenty of peoples as a whole that eat this way. Plenty of those same peoples that are now the worse diabetics in the world now that they are eating a ‘normal’ healthy diet.

Follow the money. There is no money to be made with healthy people. It’s a sad state for the world to be in, but it’s true. I think that soon even the body building health nuts out there are in for one helluva surprise when they find out what injecting all this extra insulin for muscle growth is doing to their health. Expect to see a sharp rise in heart disease and related issues in the next 20 years in that world.