Doctor who recommended Keto says it isn't great as a long term diet

newbies

(Omar) #41

yes

and one example Dr Google could not help me with is the question can fasting hurt metabolism?
Dr phinney has different views from Dr Fung.

what I usually do is find people that I can trust and take their opinion. Including people in this forum since I am not planning to study medicine or get involved in research too late for me.

The issue here is that I trust both Dr phinney and Dr Fung


(Candy Lind) #42

Same here. I’m so deranged, I doubt I will ever stray very far from keto, at least not for the number of years @richard said it would take for my body to “forget it was sick.” I’m nowhere close to that. I’m not strict when we’re on the road (in the truck) - “lazy” is easier; but in order to lose some more weight I will have to go strict again at some point.


(Doug) #43

Omar, Phinney and Fung are usually looking at different groups of people - Phinney with younger, healthier, thinner people, and Fung with fatter people who have metabolic problems. I do disagree with some of the things Phinney has said about fasting in general - I think they are exaggerated and overly-generalized.

A lot of good information there. Fung notes - and I’ve seen the studies behind it - that after 2 days of fasting, the metabolism speeds up by 3.6%, and that after 4 days of fasting, it’s increased by 14%. :sunglasses:


(Chelsea Barnett) #44

Haha yeah. Doctors each have their own opinion just like other people. So it can be hard to go by a doctor’s advice too.
My family doctor told me I need to eat a small meal or snack every 2 hours. But I am choosing to not take that advice bevause she hadn’t done much study on keto and she doesn’t understand how I can’t do keto that way.
And I also wonder about the metabolism thing bevause I’ve always been told to eat something first thing in morning to kick start metabolism. So fasting is confusing to me. However I still choose to do it. But I wish i had an answer to that as well


(Chelsea Barnett) #45

Sorry for all the typos. My phone sucks at auto correct


(Omar) #46

very useful
I will read it later.
After plenty of reading and deep thoughts I decided that fasting is safe.

I have done some with great outcome and I am preparing my self psychologically to do 3 days EF every month this way I can recover my appetite which seem to go very low after day 3.


(Aimee Moisa) #47

If Fung wrote this I wish he had put a by line, it’s not good to have a science PDF floating around that we can’t attribute to an individual with credentials.


(Doug) #48

Aimee, it’s https://idmprogram.com/ - this is definitely Dr. Fung’s deal.


#49

This is one that I read a while back by Dr. Fung.


(Candy Lind) #50

@OldDoug’s reply just above speaks to that. I think the grazing habit that’s come from the high-carb bad advice we’ve received for years is one of the main causes of the soaring IR/T2D rates we have. Every feed generates an insulin release, and the excess serum insulin feeds hunger. A vicious circle!

I’m really bad about making my BPC last for hours, but since it’s nearly all fat calories, I hope it’s not doing me much harm; I may try checking my BG once an hour for a whole day to see what it’s doing (since I can’t test insulin that often).


#51

As I said above, doctors know nothing more about nutrition than does your average plumber or architect. Perhaps it easier for them to understand the big fancy words used as short hand in the studies but after reading them for awhile, they are relatively easy to decipher. Plus some doctors only read the abstracts. Often the abstract really does not explain the study results well. If you do not look at the methods and discussion you may not realize the study does not apply to you or that for fat they used a rancid seed oil for example.

My entire family are doctors, I am not, barely took any science in college. At my last event the person helping me with the invitiations and printing the envelopes said she had personally never seen so many people with doctor before their names invited to one event. My family is completely clueless. I am the one suggesting vitamins, supplements, diets. I fixed my father’s T2 with a LC moderate fat diet, after he had 2 heart attacks (he will not do heavy duty fat and does not eat bacon anyway). Nor do most doctors really care what you have to say about nutrition other than the usual low fat whole grain dogma. I have one cousin whose entire family does not eat beef because her father in law died of heart disease which he got young (I believe he was 42 and thin at the time but it went on for years). They do eat whole food SAD and are not particularly healthy even though both parents and children are thin and athletic

I believe he was talking about fat cells. Fat is not simply an inert storage unit as originally believed, it is metobolically active and is now considered an organ by some people. For example, most people develop IR in their muscles or other organs way before they are even pre diabetic because for many people your fat does not become IR until right before you are diagnosed as T2. Your fat will keep sopping up the excess sugar that the rest of your body refuses to accept. This will cause you to gain weight. The analysis from what I have read is not that you become fat and then develop IR but rather that you develop IR and then become fat. I think the true path is you have a sensitivity to sugar or carbs, you develop IR from overeating carbs due to your sensitivity, you become fat because with IR the sugar is going into your fat cells rather than being burned and eventually your fat cells become IR and then you have T2.

If your fat was built up during IR, then it is metabollicaly unhealthy fat. Fat cells live for 10 years (I believe) and one third are relpaced every 3 years or so (I think). After 10 years on keto all of the IR fat cells have been replaced. However, the mechanism that created the IR, the carb sensitivity, is still there. I believe Beta cells in the pancreas are never replaced, there are no stem cells in the pancreas so even if your fat is replaced, your insulin producers are not.

I tell everyone, even if you make no changes to your diet, eliminate processed food, eliminate seed oils including canola and soybean, especially in salad dressings and other foods. If the oil does not come from something that is naturally high in fat, it is probably unstable or highly processed (eg how fatty is cottonseed naturally? Not very). Cook with avocado oil, butter ghee, coconut oil, light olive oil (I used Extra Virgin for low heat sauteeing and as a marinade or dressing) and animal fat if you are inclined. Eliminate all sugar and simple carbs and low fat dairy and eat organic if you can afford it, especially anything that does not have a skin (eg I eat regular avocados most of the time

I originally thought I would do keto to lose weight and then transition but for the first time in my life since age 13 I am not hungry or obsessed with food. If there is food I will eat, if there is not I can keep going. I rarely get cravings and when I do they are controllable. I can have one bite of something because I still have the desire in my brain but it is not reinforced when I do take the bite, it never tastes the same as I remembered it. I tried a moderate carb, moderate fat, mediterranean type diet for many years. I would always end up cheating at any excuse, whether wedding, bar mitzvah, kids ordered pizza, my sister in law made her special desert, whatever. I would have one bite, then another and another and I could not stop at one or two slices. With LC I usually am not even tempted (ok mentally I am but it is more a theoretical temptation, such as someone who is Hindu might have to a beef hamburger but they know they can have a lamb kabob so it is not really that tempting. I am now the same way with keto and some things do not tempt me at all. I know that a certain time after I stop the cravings will be back


#52

These things are all true for a paleo/ancestral approach.


(Jay Patten) #53

@Madeleine

Well that depends on how much fruit, milk and yogurt (sugar) you eat.

Paleo does not necessarily mean low carb or high fat.

But yes, you are right. A paleo diet can offer these same benefits.


(Aimee Moisa) #54

Oh, I am aware of that, I just can’t share the PDF with anyone sceptical because it can’t be proven that it’s Dr. Fung.


#55

Well, yes, of course - but how much xxx you eat is true for any WOE. I just meant that there are amazing success/healing stories out of paleo (and not just ketogenic paleo). Many folks have great success with moderate carb paleo.
I’m just surprised that this thread turned into a bit of “keto vs SAD” or “keto is great” rather than addressing the actual question of the OP.


(Jay Patten) #56

@Madeleine

Well, let’s boil the conversation down to “I am not diabetic, is this diet safe long term?”

My answer, also boiled down, is “yes, non-diabetic people eat keto long term for non-insulin related health reasons.”


(Brian) #57

I hear ya. I have a tendency to think a lot like you in this regard. There is a lot of flexibility built into keto and I’ve thought for a while now that a low-carb paleo diet and a keto diet are pretty darned close to the same thing.

I eat a little fruit here and there, too, not much, but a little. It’s not a food group, it’s a condiment. And I transgress into the root vegetable category on occasion, too, with the small serving of carrots or sweet potatoes. Again, it’s not a regular thing and I am mindful of the carbs involved. No, I don’t keep under 20g a day but I’m not one who has to in order to remain in ketosis.

I happen to love a large variety of foods many of which are keto friendly. I eat well. It it happens to resemble a low-carb paleo, I’m just not gonna get all that excited about it. Mostly, I’m keto. Occasionally, I enjoy a little outside of keto.

For the most part, this is kinda working itself out for me.

Just rambling on a bit…

:slight_smile:


(Diane) #58

My understanding is that the possibility of beta cell regeneration or “healing” depends on whether or not you have type 1 diabetes.

With regards to how often fat cells “turnover” or die off and are replaced, I found this following article:

Which leads me to an interesting question: if (as has been suggested by discussions on the 2ketodudes podcast) different tissue types can have different levels of insulin resistance, how long does one need to keep ones blood sugar low (and thus, insulin levels low) in order to replace all the cells of the most resistant tissue types and completely reverse all insulin resistance in the body? If that’s even possible since some tissue types may not be replaced (corneas and some neural tissue?).


#59

Excellent question, and I agree with everything you said. I do enjoy berries and cherry tomatoes as well, and of course both are in season right now, as are cherries! Love cherries!!!
I’ve cut way back on them but the first few weeks I was on keto I was having a 1/2 cup blueberries w/ whole fat cottage cheese! I think it slowed me down a bit, but I was willing to start slow so I could acclimate to very reduced carbs in my diet. I still eat 4-5 cherry tomatoes a few times a week, which is OK. Rather eat those than kale or cauliflower! I CANNOT buy cherries, because I would eat the entire bag in 1 go! I do miss them, :sob:


(Linda) #60

Figures those darned fat cells would live eight years. Tenacious little buggers.