I am about 3 weeks in. I feel good, and am not hungry. Can I just to fat and protein and not worry about getting my veggis in? I am not ANTI vegetables, but feel like if I am ok without them, do I need to stress if I don’t get them in every day?
Do I HAVE to eat my veggis?
siobhan
(Siobhan)
#2
The amount of vegetables you need ranges from 0 to as much as you can tolerate (varies by person).
If you don’t want any, then no you don’t need any. If you want some (non-starchy) veg though, feel free - they can be delicious.
EDIT: To expand on this, there are some people who are Zero Carb and don’t eat any vegetables or fruit at all. They are perfectly happy and healthy this way, so I think you’re just fine.
Fiorella
#3
@siobhan is totally correct. There is no need to consume vegetables. You can get full nutrition profile from zero carb (no plants) foods. There is also no issue with needing fibre as a colon “broom” or plants to “feed gut biome”…unless a sick person has a particular disease or ailment they need to fix. And that sick person became sick eating vegetables, not ZC. Eating ZC will not cause detriment to your gut.
There is a segment of people who follow a ketogenic way of eating that are ZC eaters, and they are perfectly healthy. It’s a lifestyle choice. Some people want veggies on their plate next to their steak, for example. While others would prefer a fried egg, or sautéed shrimp, or bacon, or nothing else next to their steak. Eat what you want to eat, and you will be fine.
Rob_Kiefer
(Rob Kiefer)
#4
Just wondering where the “No need for veggies” is coming from. Is it an opinion or proven fact? I have been on a strick ultra low carb program for almost a year and have eaten barely any veggies and I feel good. In my LCHF circle I do get the stink eye when we talk about what we have consumed in the previous week and I say I haven’t eaten a single leaf. It would be nice to read some science regarding this topic.
Fiorella
#5
Have you listened to the 2 keto dudes podcast with @amber? She provides lots of sources, as well as the web links she mentions provide more sources as well.
The “need to eat veggies” and “don’t eat too much meat” stink eye exists in LCHF and keto community. With my experience, if you happen to provide scientific information to counter their arguments, they become very defensive and quite pissed off. Similar reaction to a high-carb low-fat eater when I engage in a conversation about “show me the science”.
And yes, there are a few “eat your veggies” and “eat less meat” members of this community on this forum. I’ve pissed them off more than once. Not intentionally. That is what happens when facts versus factoid discussions happen. The one who brings facts to the conversation doesn’t get pissed off. The one who brings factoids throws a fit.
Daisy
#8
As well as the podcast mentioned and the ZC/Carnivore section here on the forum you might be interested in this site…
and there is also a good FB page called Principia Carnivora.
trekkin1
(Jo Lo)
#10
I think that when you eat meat you are getting the benefit of the vegetables that the animal ate, digested, and metabolized. It’s really as close as we can come to a complete food.
yogipete
#11
The “no need for veggies” thing is opinion not fact. There’s a few ZC zero plant fiber crew here I see you have met. I believe they should have declared their bias to you. The majority of keto experts recommend veggies and moderate protein. It’s called a well-formulated keto diet by Phinney. Zero veggies is not usually considered a well formulated diet and certainly not for anyone who is already nutritionally lacking.
When you rule out veggies totally you cross out a large slice of the experts advising a keto diet.
The onus to prove efficacy would of course be on the “no veggies” fans. I posted many scientific links in a heated debate on this last week and was told by @fiprella that she wasn’t willing to discuss it anymore, so it’s a bit rich her saying she pissed other people off. Seems really that she was more pissed than anyone, as witnessed by her refusal to discuss the science.
In any case you’ll find plenty of supporters in going zero carb.
There’s pretty serious concern in the scientific literature about a myriad of vitamin deficiencies that can and have occurred, causing long term health issues in some people who don’t eat any veggies. Some of these issues can take years to arise. It’s an open experiment.
There are some pretty serious cases in the literature: scurvy, schizophrenia, depression and suicide. Irritability is common and I wouldn’t be surprised if that comes up on this thread.
Good luck.
ducking now
MarkGossage
(bulkbiker)
#12
@yogipete
I’ve noticed that you have this confrontational attitude on a few of your posts. If you are going to rude about people though it’s quite a good idea to get their name and sex correct otherwise you make yourself look a bit of a dick. There are indeed quite a few people who eat zero plant and I haven’t seen any reports of the problems you mention. I tried it myself for a month and found it quite acceptable and have eaten less veg since then although I still have a few because I like brussels sprouts in butter.
And to be honest at the moment everything is opinion and not fact. Until there are trials with people locked in rooms for years on end being fed precise diets then we are all following our own opinions. Some supported by trials others supported by anecdotal evidence from people we respect.
The onus to prove a point is on the person who is pointedly trying to have a fight… in this case I think that would be you.
mikki
(eat more)
#13
i remember being taught about scurvy in grade school (a LONG LONG time ago) and it scared the bejeezus out of me 
i don’t think the mental disorders are caused by scurvy…but that scurvy is caused by mental disorders and malnutrition…
i know you didn’t say they did but i don’t think anyone NOT eating plants is going to go bananas (pun intended) because they aren’t eating plants
there are millions of ppl…adult and children alike that don’t eat fruits or veggies…not because they’re LCHF/ZC…
while i sometimes think the world has gone crazy…it’s not because they aren’t eating their veggies
scurvy is a vitamin C deficiency and easily remedied…most ppl take some form of supplemental vitamin c…especially during “cold season” (out of habit/lore…not necessarily efficacy)
some organ meats are high in vitamin c
i remember the discussion between you and @fiorella and it didn’t read (to me) as anger…to me it was smart to excuse oneself from a discussion that was going nowhere.
more of a recognize futility when you see it and focus your energies elsewhere
i think it’s ironic/interesting that the most heated/controversial threads i’ve seen on this forum…a keto forum have been about freaking vegetables…not even a vegetarian forum!!!
Dustin
(Dustin)
#14
Happy to see the answer no. lol. I like my greens, but don’t like having to eat them. I was looking up this question because I know Dr. Berg pushes it strongly. Haven’t seen his videos in a while, but know he pushes that.
Fiorella
#15
Yogi. Have you noticed the recipes I posted on this forum. They are FULL of vegetables. Is corn chip tortillas zero carb? Is almond biscotti zero carb? How about stroganoff made with mushrooms? I don’t believe the “need to eat the veggies or else you get diseases” rhetoric as there is sufficient science to disprove the needs, and human tribes that survived without stated diseases. In fact, this week I helped newbies on this forum with vegetarian and vegan constraints with improving their keto journey and I respected their want to remain vegetarian. I gave them advice in a way that they can remain veggie only eaters. So not sure this negative post from you. How is it that I’m getting a kick in the ass from you? Please help me understand your negative post calling me out.
amber
(L. Amber O'Hearn)
#16
You may be interested to know that Steven Phinney himself is aware of and talks about the fact that many indigenous cultures did not eat much plant matter. I’ve talked to him about my diet, and he expressed no concern whatsoever.
Here’s an example of what he thinks from an interview: Steve Phinney on Pemmican and Indigenous Diets
Interviewer Shelley Schlender: People of course lived on this with vegetables and salad supplemented, to get their vitamin C, their carbohydrates. Surely they added other things to this diet?
Dr. Phinney: That has always been the tacit assumption that “hunter gatherers” did that. But the accounts of Catlin and others is that different groups of indigenous people had different dietary practices. But some of these indigenous people existed essentially as pure hunters. The Lakota, Dakota and Nakota nations were nomadic peoples who did not farm, they lived on the prairie, and they had very little fruit and vegetables available for most of the annual cycle of the year, and the warrior group of males in particular prided themselves in not eating “women’s food”, by which might be meant gathered plants.
amber
(L. Amber O'Hearn)
#17
As to micronutrients, it is easy to verify that animal sourced food is richer in micronutrients and in more bioavailable forms than plants are.
The most contentious one is vitamin C, which I’ve addressed in a couple of places:
-
Ketogenic Diets, Vitamin C, and Metabolic Syndrome (follow link to full post)
(In which I show that the RDA for vitamin C is inflated, particularly for ketogenic dieters) -
C is for Carnivore
(In which I show that the USDA database is wrong (and they know it) and that it’s been known for over a century that plain old meat cures scurvy)
Rosemarie
#18
I tried the zero carb month and had no ill effects from eating no veggies. Since then I have noticed a decline in my desire for veggies overall. I used to think I’d suffer ill effects from no fiber but that has not happened. I’ve learned to listen to my body so sometimes I eat veggies and sometimes I don’t. I continue to be amazed at the lessons keto has taught me.
yogipete
#19
One month is not enough to hurt yourself with zero carb. I’m talking the years long situation. It takes years and years to establish a quality gut microbiome and it can take years for any problems in a poor gut to show. It’s the same stuff that kills vegans after decades – it is slowly degrading metabolic function. Issues like anxiety and depression don’t just suddenly announce themselves. People can have these issues for years before they get so problematic that people seek help. Same thing with chronic fractures and any number of issues that can arise from poor gene expression.
You might want to study what the various keto experts (outside of this group) are saying about plant fiber consumption. David Perlmutter for example says that the damage done to the gut biome is sometimes completely unrecoverable without drastic interventions.
It’s a great video interview really highlighting the need for plant fiber. Check out his book too if you have time.
You could look at any number of keto experts really. Same story with most of them. They just kinda nod and say “yup need fiber for the gut microbiome.” They are simply reporting the weight of current evidence (not opinion and zero carber bias). It’s an open and shut case really. There’s a lot of good quality evidence supporting the role of a well managed microbiome through plant fiber.
My advice would be to eat your greens. Feeling bad through the absence of plant fiber is something that can take a long time to happen but when it does it can take an equally long time to recover from. Not eating quality veggies will deprive your body of pre-biotic fiber the gut microbiome needs in order function well. It can take a decade or more to fully repair the genotype signatures of your gut microbiome.
The gut is really crucial to your health and particularly your longevity and risk factors for disease in later life. The quality of the gut microbiome determines your genetic expression of your DNA. What that is saying is that if you want to be the best version of yourself you will look after the gut flora diversity and quality.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/812353
Good luck.
Becky
(I want abs... olutely all the bacon)
#20
I encourage exploration of our Zero Carb / Carnivore threads, there’s enough science linked there to help you form your own opinion.
My n=1 is I ate ZC for 18 months without problems, regular health screenings showed no deficiencies. I didn’t have deficiencies until 10 years later after I reintroduced processed carbohydrates, I had a significant D deficit and was mildly deficit in a few other nutrients along with a fatty liver, elevated liver enzymes, and skyhigh triglycerides at the top of my list of issues. I thought the 18 months ZC “solved” my issues, I just restarted the deterioration period over. I am biased because I feel better eating ZC, but I don’t stay ZC consistently because I enjoy garlic, onion, curry, spinach, chocolate, herbs… I eat these for flavor and not a desire or cravings for nutrients. I’m also like others in this thread, my interest in these flavorings is diminishing with each ZC round.