Discipline "after" keto

#41

There is not one reason the body requires carbs. Simple as that and if one truly learns this and knows the body only requires protein and fat for true survival…well DUH…take some big conclusions from real nature and its real science.

Tons of reasons sugar is a drug. Physically. Emotionally. Convenience eating. 24/7 eating. No real nutrition so you keep eating cause your body is truly starving. You are addicted because your body is dying inside, begging for more food all the time, praying for itself to be fed correctly yet it doesn’t come. Then the body starts to rebel. Illness kicks in. See, the body says, I’ll show you…what do you do now matters. Take pills for symptoms and live worse or clean up your act? Bodies never came with owner manuals. It came with simple science and then humans walked far far away from that.

#42

How could i say you are not right?
I the cravings for your next dose of carbs more than well. That was my main reason to write my initial posting here. But still „a real“ drug works differently.

I stayed on Keto in the meantime. Did not have a single day of cheating, just about 20 grams of cheesecake on Halloween. And i still love my two teaspoons of peanutbutter a day.

To sums things up:
I absolutely believe in the ketogenic diet,
I saw and still see the benefits everyday.
Not only did i lose 20 kilos but also feel cured from minor depressive episodes that i now see the main reason for in high carb consumption.
I am now 44 years old and i am in the best shape in the last 15 years.

BUT: Da*n, my wife just baked cookies the other day. And i could have eaten them all. Instead i had a piece of the size the tip of my pinkie.

#43

Just by repeating it again and again it will not become less wrong. The effects may be similar. A conventional drug however works in a completely different was.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #44

It’s my understanding that sugar triggers a dopamine response the same way many intoxicating drugs do. It stimulates the pleasure center in the brain, the dopamine is pumped out and you feel good. As the dopamine levels drop a repeat experience is wanted reenforced by the drop in energy and BG levels.

As someone who used prescription pain medication for 23 years and was hooked to the gills as they say (now free) I know very well what opiate withdrawal feels like. I had my first med free day a little over a year ago, a week before I started eating KETO. I was amazed at how similar but to a lesser degree, how carb withdrawal felt.

KETO flu felt just like first day opiate withdrawal to me. All too familiar of a feeling. You can say sugar isn’t a drug or doesn’t have the same physiological mechanism as drugs do if you like but the similarities are uncanny from my experience. :cowboy_hat_face:

#45

Keto flu is electrolyte problem.
Missing carbs is something else but it was similar to a severe lack of sodium when I fasted too long without having any idea about electrolytes… I felt drunk and dizzy and wanted food while I felt like a zombie and wanted fruits when I had very little carbs (giving up added sugar was the easiest thing ever, low-carb went well but keto was out of my comfort zone first). But it was the same strong want. Too little salt, enough food and ketosis resulted in very slight dizzyness only, I didn’t desire anything.
I know nothing about real drug withdrawal but it can be similar, why not? Very different happenings in the body may cause similar symptoms.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #46

Partly…electrolytes help alleviate the symptoms but carb withdrawal is part of it too. If I am low on electrolytes now it get muscle spasms or a headache. Quite different from my first KETO week. Mental torment, weak, sick feeling.

#47

Dr. Robert Lustig refers to sugar as a poison. A dose-dependent chronic liver toxin. He also calls it the alcohol of the child.

@David_Stilley congrats on kicking the meds and the sugar!

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #48

I don’t like the term ‘keto flu’ because keto is not the problem. Carb withdrawal is a much better and more accurate description of what’s going on. Essentially what happens is glucose drops because you’re not replenishing it with carby foods. At some point gluconeogenesis kicks in to insure that your brain and red blood cells continue to function. At the same time glycogen stores get drawn down to the point of general fatigue and weakness. This all happens by the end of day 2 of a water fast.

Lipolysis and ketosis are triggered by low glucose and insulin. Metabolic disorders ranging from slight insulin resistance to full-on T2D can and do interfere with both lipolysis and ketosis. Depending upon these and many other factors the switch from glucose/glycogen to fatty acids/ketones for energy can be imperceptible to agonizingly slow.

Yes, electrolytes can help relieve many of the symptoms. But often, the problem is the body’s inability to utilize fatty acids and ketones. Glycogen is pretty much gone and glucose is at or near base level. And nothing much is being done with the available fatty acids and ketones that are now floating around unused. How long it lasts depends on how long it takes to start using them.

(Jane) #49

You are moving the goal posts now from out-of-control eating of sugar all day (junk food) to an apple pie with fruit from your own garden.

In fact, I plan to cook a full sugar apple pie for Thanksgiving but it is a twice-a-year treat, not daily or weekly or even monthly.

But that is not what you are dealing with. If you could have a reasonable amount of carby foods without binging you wouldn’t be back in the same place as you started. Only you can control your binges and over-indulgences.

I can say from experience in my house that you CAN eat higher carbs and maintain your weight but it can’t be ice cream, candy and other crap. A serving of mashed potatoes on maintenance? No problem… as long as it doesn’t set off a binge.

If you want carbs, stick to real, whole food. No sugar. No processed foods.

Good luck.

#50

Thanks! After I wrote it, I had a thought maybe it’s not that easy but on another forum it was a frequent sentence and it’s surely a very big part of it… As I didn’t have carb withdrawal when I actually went into ketosis after low-carb (it was really easy and smooth then) and people are different, making different potential mistakes in the beginning, I don’t have a good enough idea how that feels.

#51

So true, thank you Janie.
Good luck for you too, enjoy your apple pie and have a small piece for me too :slight_smile:

#52

Well David, who am i to tell you what to think. Or want to believe i should say.
I am just glad that science works differently, excuse me

(Ian) #53

I stay on the keto train not because of weight loss, body image, etc, but because I am convinced it will allow me to live as long as possible in the best health as possible so that I can enjoy life to the fullest with my children and grandchildren. When I compare the short term high of satisfying a sweet tooth carb addiction, to the long term health benefits, I can now walk past those cookies without too much trouble.

However, it did take some time to fight the cravings (3-4 months) and I believe it will become less of a problem with time, for the whole community, as the food industry catches up with our lifestyle and wallets and starts to offer up keto friendly snacks and indulgences .

(Susan) #54

These foods will still always be processed and have preservatives and additives in them so it is better to make your own Keto treats from scratch at home if you want them for special occasions in my opinion.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #55

Already well underway. :confused:

#56

When the bakery goods look like a plastic art installation, it’s a good indicator that addiction has abated.

(Jane) #57

Because of your medical background I think you are taking those who say “sugar is a drug” too literally.

It’s not so much how it chemically reacts in the body compared to a drug… it’s our emotional dependence on it, cravings when withdrawn, and pleasure when partaken that are similar (not exact) responses.

I always mentally pat myself on the back that I don’t care about sugary foods and can take them or leave them. My husband quit buying me chocolate for Valentines Day years ago when I would have a couple and the box was still sitting on the counter in June.

However! I had a revelation this past week when I was close to breaking my 72-hr fast. I love sweetener in my coffee (and cream) and really miss it when fasting. I mean really miss it. I was literally watching the clock with my packet of Truvia in my hand waiting to add it to my coffee. I sucked it down like it was a magical elixir and it definitely fired the pleasure centers of my brain.

Anyway… back to your topic. You are young and healthy with your whole life in front of you so your options are not as limited as mine (age 60, cancer survivor, years of insulin resistance and overweight). I am healthy, at a healthy weight and am looking at the tail end of my life with all my neighbors 10-20 years older than me and observing their health issues and decline. There is no “after keto” for me. I don’t want to be them. I know I can’t stop the clock but I can be healthier than them and for me that means keto for life.

For you… you just need to find a balance between keto and eating sugar all day. It will eventually catch up to you - no doubt. Not if, but when. May not be for decades.

(Jane) #58

If you look at photos from the 40’s of groups of people it is startling how different they look from group photos today. This was after the depression so people weren’t going hungry due to lack of money.

They didn’t have to eat keto to stay thin and they had bread at every meal. But what they DID NOT eat were processed foods, seed oils or much sugar. Sugar was a treat at holidays - not consumed daily except in small amounts in cooking or baking bread. Saturated fats made up the majority of the fat in their diets.

People alway talk about eating Paleo like our ancient ancestors. We don’t have to go back that far to find a way of eating to not get fat. Just eat like our great-great grandparents did. Whole food, saturated fats, low sugar. At least at your age. Too late for me but better late than never.

(Carl D Black) #59

This is exactly why pee strips are often so dark when a person first starts out in ketosis. Body is still very IR and spills the excess ketones in the urine. It clears over time as IR heals and the cells utilize the ketones more efficiently.

#60

Hi!
I don’t have a scientific advice, just my personal experience. When I eat not keto, which does not happen often, but it does happen, I keep it omad (which stops me from eating sugar all day long) and low fat (because I don’t like the idea of high insulin and fat). I would typically do lean meats and fruits. I usually feel fine (no water weight or brain fog), but even then I do feel hungrier the day after. I think it’s something that just happens with carbs?

If you want to transition out of keto, maybe it’s a good idea to start with only one meal of more complexe carbs and less fat (so, no ice cream) and see how your body is reacting?

For me, the upside is, since lean meat and fruits is still pretty boring, I go back to my tastier keto meals in no time :slight_smile: