Discipline "after" keto

#21

Just don’t go crazy with your carbs. I never will abandon keto for good but I definitely won’t do it for life either. I will have carbier days. But I don’t eat just any carby food and definitely not in big amounts because it would hurt me. A slice of pizza or a piece of cake, you wrote. That might be fine for you - if you can stop at once slice or two and it’s not too often (whatever it means in your case). It’s quite different from “sweets all day”, that was a problem. You might find some keto friendly treat too so you can enjoy your cakes more often. It’s not advisable for everyone but I am pretty content with eating cake or some other dessert for every meal (as a part of my meal, never just dessert). They are too useful. If you are adamant to eat cakes, do it in a smart way. You tried the crazy carby days, they didn’t work, do it more carefully then.

For me, eating once a day does wonders with my control. I’m not disciplined, I don’t even want to use more than a minimal self control when I eat. I just don’t get tempted on OMAD unless I make huge mistakes (too much carbs compared to calories, too little protein or calories). Total unlimited eating (unlimited carbs and eating all day), that’s a very bad combo for most of us I believe. Especially if we start with carbs. Tasty ones that makes us want more but we stay hungry or get hungry soon, eat more and more… Not everyone works like this but carbs are not very satiating, usually so if we focus on them too much, we might overeat and have other negative effects. Eating our cake after a substantial LCHF lunch sounds less dangerous. Even if we have an impressive dessert stomach, it’s way easier to stop eating even non-satiating carby food when we are full.

#22

I had to look at a few things and address them in truth to myself.

I was very good at pretending, denying, deflecting, and excusing the food I ate so these are my personal thoughts on what it takes for me to not gain back, to stay healthy and avoid the sugar swings and binges on crap and to hold a healthy eating lifestyle.

I wanted carbs back. So darn bad. I wasn’t fooling any one. When I lost 50 I was happy and wanted back to ‘normal eating’…….well normal eating now is not normal. Only normal is eons ago. Hunter into gatherer. There was no candy. Processed junk. Manufactured sweets…you know…anything the planet did not offer was not in existence…that is normal food. Nothing normal about today’s eating ONLY that is the new pattern of eating for humans and we all want that stuff…if I COULD eat it and be healthy I would. I can not. No one truly can in a way. Sugar is the devil.

I know I am not a moderator. I have to be an abstainer. Moderation never existed for me. I tried to climb the ‘carb ladder’…every time I did I failed. I wanted ALL food back, but not 1 slice of pizza this day…I wanted 3-4 slices of pizza and then a ton of ice cream after. Next day wasn’t a ‘biscuit’ only in the day…I would then have French fries at lunch and for dinner a loaded baked potatoe and of course ice cream for dessert. There was never a ‘eat a little bit’ and you will be fine. I couldn’t do it. I binged out.

Then I also read the maintainers. The success people who lost a lot of lbs…got healthy and dropped some med troubles etc…and have been 4-5-6 yrs out and maintaining their loss. They all say they eat SO CLOSE to how they lost the weight and gained health factors. They do not deviate. They ‘may allow’ a special treat 2 times a month for a holiday, birthday or special event but they are not eating back the way they did before in any way. Those who maintain do not stray far from what it took to get their results. If they lost it, kept it off, told me thru advice and yrs of it that no one can go back to eating the old way if you want to never gain it back…well then I have to say their advice is priceless. Thru action they succeed and hold long term.

Sugar is sugar. Don’t pretend apple pie is better than a bag of cotton candy, cause it is not. Now better for ingredients and freshness, sure :slight_smile: but it is sugar and sugar is sugar and where it comes from does not matter. I had to realize that also. I couldn’t pretend a few cups of watermelon which I loved was not the same as sucking down a donut. It is the same.

Hardest for me was accepting facts I didn’t want to accept. I relied heavily on denial as I ate worse and gained back the lbs. Denial that I was one that needed a certain healthy path to succeed. I had to follow what worked for me cause when I added the carby stuff back in my weight gain happened. When I went back on a near zero carb plan, less than 10 total carbs per day I flourished.

We all must trial and error ourselves. What is our willpower vs. our desire to stay healthy and slimmer and other great benefits we get from our healthy eating plans. What balance can we allow for ourselves.

Some can do the 5:2. Eat 5 days strict keto or whatever plan and allow 2 days off. They flourish. I sadly couldn’t do it…2 days off became 3-4 and more and boom I couldn’t get back on plan.

Others do a treat meal a week. They do great. Me, nope :slight_smile:

It really is what can you do to control yourself and you have to come to terms what will work for you and what works against you.

It can be so hard. I so get that!~

It has to be a maintenance plan that is VERY close to your way of eating it took to lose the lbs. and gain back your health. You must find that way to add a few carbs per day only. The minute you want back pizza, sweets, candy I have to say you are way past what it took to get healthy, your body is gonna suck up that sugar and make ya more hungry and move toward possible binging and then the weight gain hits and we go more off the rails…………thing is everyone has a maintenance plan in them. You have to work on what will work for you and not against you. It is a hard road to sow. Many never maintain. Only true maintainers with years under their belt usually say they never go far from the plan it took to lose the weight and gain health so……

just chatting out some thoughts I was dealing with. If we chat about it all some advice might help in what I wrote…….best of luck to you. Your path is there and you will find it :slight_smile:

(Full Metal KETO AF) #23

Once it hits your gut sugar and flour and rice are all the same thing.

Truth, diets don’t work, lifestyle changes do. No going back in life, we go forward. :cowboy_hat_face:

(PJ) #24

LOL – that reminds me of the few times I tried “carb cycling” weekends. It always started with good intentions, but led to me facedown in the pasta (prior to gluten-free).

The problem is the concept, in a way. At this point, I intentionally eat a variation in carbs, including ordinary HC during holiday with family, but it is never going off plan, because my plan builds certain variation in. If I thought of something like a ‘free’ or ‘offplan’ or ‘cheat’ it was a disaster. If I was controlling it like my intent all along, with a very defined time, it worked ok. But I probably had to get to that point by a long time of good eating to get past a lot of the brain chem and gut chem triggers.

(Bunny) #25

If I were in that situation I would pump iron (weight training), do a little cardio and have a solid routine on both, lots of science behind it but not going to get into that here.

Instead of doing keto just have fasting days but you have to be dedicated, fear of dedication is why peeps freak-out (desperation)!

#26

Think about what you’re saying, you want to use drugs and not be addicted! Same exact thing! Can you not be keto and still be ok eating carbs? Yes… but not if you’re eating the carbs that you (and everybody else) wants to eat! If your carb intake is higher because of veggies, lower glycemic fruits, even things like sweet potatoes, oats you’lll probably be fine. I eat of a lot of that stuff as well. But when you eat the stuff that’s junk food by either Keto or SAD standards then ya, you’re brain is gonna sell you out. That’s what sugar does. I’d look into your diet and see if you’re needlessly restricting yourself as well. Keto isn’t a restrictive WOE but many people eat in a very restrictive way and have a small never ending rotation of foods which will absolutely give you the “diet” feeling. SAD is never an option for me, that crap did way too much damage to me and I still haven’t fixed it all after eating this way for almost 3yrs now but I’m WAY better than I was. If I were to leave keto it would still be a LCHF diet, Maybe a Paleo variant or something. You could also look into Atkins, it starts off as Keto, but then you slowly, in a specific order start adding carbs back in to access your tolerance to both the carbs and the foods and in the end you’re supposed to eat very close to “normal” just with the foods that mess you up removed. For many you do hit a point where the cravings come back though, gotta be careful.

(Carl D Black) #27

Hi Niels. I had to lose a LOT more weight than you, but I am now experiencing the same problem. I hit my initial goal weight of 200 lbs (from 285) and decided to take a little “break” from Keto/IF. I haven’t gone hog wild or anything, but the cravings and mental preoccupation with food, especially BAD foods is beyond belief! So, I hear ya!

I would add this to your question: Why, after doing Keto and fasting for 9 months and eating really healthy foods is it SO hard to reintroduce carbs and just have a healthy relationship with them?

Everyone seems to be praising Dave Stilley (sp?) above. Sure. McDonald’s, the local pizza joint or sub shop is not exactly offering nutritional food, but what about fruits? They are high in carbs/fructose, but junk? Uhh, no. A diabetic/prediabetic shouldn’t be eating them bc of the need to heal IR. But for maintenance?

(bulkbiker) #28

Depends if you want the associated NAFLD that comes along with over consumption?

#29

Rightnow I liked your post!!

Concept and our view of ‘what are we on’ and perception of it all is so important.

On and off a Keto plan? Hmm. It should be Keto for life. But then if we want another plan we should ‘make a plan!!!’ that will work for us and not against us and get on that plan again…that becomes the new lifestyle eating change. But it has to be realistic cause there is no ‘go back to all I ate before Keto’ and all will be fine. It never will :slight_smile:

Make another plan…….‘after Keto’ I am now on this ‘modified Keto plan’ I made for myself…one that suits my need for control but let’s me incorporate a bit more.

Having no long term lifestyle eating plan in your mind at all you are now ‘after Keto’…going willy nilly. You have no plan to follow. No guidelines. No boundaries set in your mind with a new plan you adopted. You start to go wild. So many of us have been there :slight_smile: I sure was. I thought when the ‘diet’ was over I could easily eat it all and be disciplined on days I needed…what a laugh that was LOL So my mind says when I am right where I want to be…happy with my goals reached…I will make a new ‘carnivore plan modified’ for me. I am mentally working on what that means. I am just not sure yet, heck I might never leave where I am at but I am also thinking in advance for maintenance. But my mind knows it requires boundaries in maintenance. No ‘after Carnivore’ for me.

That is why many maintainers adopt their ‘maintenance plan’. It is written in stone almost to suit their personal views, needs but keeps them in the healthy zone they want to stay.

Again RightNow made me think of some extra things to add into the conversation.

There is no ‘after Keto’…what there has to be is a ‘maintenance plan’ with guidelines to keep you in the healthy zone you want to be. Follow what suits yourself personally and you created a winner maintenance program for long term.

A lot of people can barely lose the lbs they want to goal and get increased health benefits they truly need…so anyone who is disciplined enough to hit that goal…now wants a maintenance plan to succeed long term needs to make that plan for them.

Best any of us can do…losing weight is easier than maintaining so many times I have read that from maintainers. But some do succeed and what one needs to do is always read what they do to succeed…they been there and done that and are holding their accomplishments.

(mole person) #30

It’s because you are still restricting something that you are in an addicts relationship with. Eating a fruit just sets you up for intense cravings. When you are solidly keto you are not feeding your addiction at all, and the limits are clear. As soon as you really start playing around again with sugar and carbohydrates it awakens a ravenous carb beast that was only ever napping.

Anyhow, you can eat fruit. If it’s actually the nutritional elements that you are after (although these are questionable) and not the sugar fix then have avocado, green peppers, cucumber, eggplant and even tomato. Personally, I’m in maintenance, sitting at a very slim 104 lbs, but I can’t eat sweet fruit without setting myself up for wanting an ice cream sundae and a Mars bar soon afterwards.

I’m not going to lie, I wish that I could, but I have tried repeatedly including this summer with just apples or berries and I always ended up eating way too much of either the fruit itself, or entirely falling off the wagon in the following days.

#31

wonderful post.

I liked everything you said in that post llana. :slight_smile:

I like to put other words.

Can an alcoholic drink 1/2 a shot and be fine?

Can a drug user take 1/2 a shot from a needle and be ok?

Sometimes food seems so innocent but in reality it is not.
Not an innocent thing about sugar in the body.

#32

Dear Dr. Viking @Niels 196cm tall, 100 - 110kg?

You are healthy enough to roller coaster up and down in body fat. You have a big frame. You highlight some important aspects about eating. Eating is about social interaction and can be about bringing oneself closer to the earth by curating your own food (apples). Sounds wonderful.

I am 195cm tall and of northern European heritage. People liken me to a bear, I carry about 120kg on my frame. If I trim down toward 110kg, people start to think I look sick. BMI does not help us big people.

The key for you may be in nutrient density?

Nutrient dense foods switch off the cravings very quickly and completely. Especially if you have metabolic fitness.

So look at what is on offer at social occasions and eat the most nutrient dense foods - eat all the pate.

Also, I was listening to Dr. Ben Bikman (PhD) and he does mention that a person who is smart with their feeding windows can remain in ketosis by eating a variety of foods. The menu is not strict high fat and low carb. The skill and benefit comes from controlling insulin by allowing the return to a low insulin state and lower insulin:glucagon ratio by having extended non-eating times.

https://www.peak-human.com/post/dr-ben-bikman-on-the-secret-tool-for-burning-fat-how-to-eat-protein-properly-metabolic-mysteries

(KCKO, KCFO) #33

True that!

#34

So true FrankoBear, i am 1,95, exactly 100.0 kg this morning. My wife just told me this evening that i look almost too skinny, almost sick. Which I am not, i fell really really good.

So far is stayed on Keto and it worked well.

One thing though that makes me wonder, and i do appreciate all your comments, please don ´t get me wrong. Comparing sugar intake to drug consumption is ridiculous. And simply wrong from a medical point of view. Even if there are a handful of similar mechanisms it is simply not true.
Apart from a very few civilisations (Inuit in Greenland for example) people always were dependant on carbs. Honey and fruit are just two examples one has to think of immediately. And our ancestors consumed those carbs while they were available in spring and fall.
And switched to Keto in wintertime and spring.
And their bodyweight was also going up and down permanently.

Just as Keto is a really good form of taking care of your body and health it is not THE ONLY WAY. There is never just one way. Just relax :smiley:

#35

That describes my problem really well. And i avoided confrontation with the beast by staying on Keto. My initial question was to walk up a little closer to the beast without waking it up. I still have no plan :smiley:

#36

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(Full Metal KETO AF) #37

You look quite healthy to me. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #38

I wish you well whatever you decide to do. As @David_Stilley says, you look good. Just one comment.

There is no evidence that humans prior to 10-8K years ago were ever ‘dependent on carbs’. The ‘fruit’ of the Pleistocene was very different and mostly indigestible cellulose, up to 90%. What we think of as ‘fruit and veggies’ today did not exist until humans domesticated and selectively bred their Pleistocene ancestors to be the carbon sacks of sugar water they are now. There was no ‘summer fattening up’ on carbs simply because they were far too nutrient deficient to offer anything more than a small adjunct to the main diet of meat, fat, fish and eggs.

Michael Eades has a video or two floating around YouTube, and linked in a few of the forums here, where he describes the anatomical differences between our hunter/gatherer and farmer ancestors. The farmers, of course, ate predominantly fruit, vegetables and grains. Their remains (Egyptian mummies show actual tissue) show evidence of virtually all of the so-called ‘modern’ metabolic related diseases. Our hunter/gatherer ancestors show none, not even tooth decay. In addition, the adoption of major carb intake during the last 10K years resulted in reduced physical stature. Our hunter/gatherer ancestors were bigger, stronger, more robust and a lot healthier overall.

Speaking of honey. My guess is some intrepid paleolithic ancestor, throwing all caution to the wind, dipped his cupped hand into an abandoned honey tree to taste the stagnant liquid and discovered ethanol. I suspect it was many K years before honey amounted to anything more than an occasional communion with the ‘spirits’. Graham Hancock thinks it was the discovery of aminita mushrooms that ushered in ‘modern’ consciousness. It was more likely fermented honey, in my opinion. But as food, not so much. It only became food when cultivation of grapes made it much easier to produce ethanol in quantity.

#39

Physiologically objectively medically maybe so. Buy psychologically medically it seems that carbohydrates are a drug. People aren’t Petri dishes. Society isn’t up-scaled cell culture. Medicine is biology and art, it’s not just pure science.

There is only one way: n=1.

(Carl D Black) #40

Tell that to someone who can’t just stop at “one” anything. My sister, who is somewhere near 300 lbs and JUST started the Keto lifestyle (thank God) is one of these people. If there is a bag of candy nearby there is NO SUCH THING as eating “just a couple.”

We are not ancestors. We live in the modern world of refined sugar and things like high fructose corn syrup. And it’s these things that exacerbate the problem, not fruit. While eating SAD I NEVER ate fruit. I loved chips and bread, not knowing that at the root of the problem was sugar.

In short, I came to realize the truth: I WAS addicted to sugar and that is why I was 290 lbs and on the verge of type 2 diabetes.