Discipline "after" keto

#34

So true FrankoBear, i am 1,95, exactly 100.0 kg this morning. My wife just told me this evening that i look almost too skinny, almost sick. Which I am not, i fell really really good.

So far is stayed on Keto and it worked well.

One thing though that makes me wonder, and i do appreciate all your comments, please don ´t get me wrong. Comparing sugar intake to drug consumption is ridiculous. And simply wrong from a medical point of view. Even if there are a handful of similar mechanisms it is simply not true.
Apart from a very few civilisations (Inuit in Greenland for example) people always were dependant on carbs. Honey and fruit are just two examples one has to think of immediately. And our ancestors consumed those carbs while they were available in spring and fall.
And switched to Keto in wintertime and spring.
And their bodyweight was also going up and down permanently.

Just as Keto is a really good form of taking care of your body and health it is not THE ONLY WAY. There is never just one way. Just relax :smiley:

#35

That describes my problem really well. And i avoided confrontation with the beast by staying on Keto. My initial question was to walk up a little closer to the beast without waking it up. I still have no plan :smiley:

#36

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(Full Metal KETO AF) #37

You look quite healthy to me. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #38

I wish you well whatever you decide to do. As @David_Stilley says, you look good. Just one comment.

There is no evidence that humans prior to 10-8K years ago were ever ‘dependent on carbs’. The ‘fruit’ of the Pleistocene was very different and mostly indigestible cellulose, up to 90%. What we think of as ‘fruit and veggies’ today did not exist until humans domesticated and selectively bred their Pleistocene ancestors to be the carbon sacks of sugar water they are now. There was no ‘summer fattening up’ on carbs simply because they were far too nutrient deficient to offer anything more than a small adjunct to the main diet of meat, fat, fish and eggs.

Michael Eades has a video or two floating around YouTube, and linked in a few of the forums here, where he describes the anatomical differences between our hunter/gatherer and farmer ancestors. The farmers, of course, ate predominantly fruit, vegetables and grains. Their remains (Egyptian mummies show actual tissue) show evidence of virtually all of the so-called ‘modern’ metabolic related diseases. Our hunter/gatherer ancestors show none, not even tooth decay. In addition, the adoption of major carb intake during the last 10K years resulted in reduced physical stature. Our hunter/gatherer ancestors were bigger, stronger, more robust and a lot healthier overall.

Speaking of honey. My guess is some intrepid paleolithic ancestor, throwing all caution to the wind, dipped his cupped hand into an abandoned honey tree to taste the stagnant liquid and discovered ethanol. I suspect it was many K years before honey amounted to anything more than an occasional communion with the ‘spirits’. Graham Hancock thinks it was the discovery of aminita mushrooms that ushered in ‘modern’ consciousness. It was more likely fermented honey, in my opinion. But as food, not so much. It only became food when cultivation of grapes made it much easier to produce ethanol in quantity.

#39

Physiologically objectively medically maybe so. Buy psychologically medically it seems that carbohydrates are a drug. People aren’t Petri dishes. Society isn’t up-scaled cell culture. Medicine is biology and art, it’s not just pure science.

There is only one way: n=1.

(Carl D Black) #40

Tell that to someone who can’t just stop at “one” anything. My sister, who is somewhere near 300 lbs and JUST started the Keto lifestyle (thank God) is one of these people. If there is a bag of candy nearby there is NO SUCH THING as eating “just a couple.”

We are not ancestors. We live in the modern world of refined sugar and things like high fructose corn syrup. And it’s these things that exacerbate the problem, not fruit. While eating SAD I NEVER ate fruit. I loved chips and bread, not knowing that at the root of the problem was sugar.

In short, I came to realize the truth: I WAS addicted to sugar and that is why I was 290 lbs and on the verge of type 2 diabetes.

#41

There is not one reason the body requires carbs. Simple as that and if one truly learns this and knows the body only requires protein and fat for true survival…well DUH…take some big conclusions from real nature and its real science.

Tons of reasons sugar is a drug. Physically. Emotionally. Convenience eating. 24/7 eating. No real nutrition so you keep eating cause your body is truly starving. You are addicted because your body is dying inside, begging for more food all the time, praying for itself to be fed correctly yet it doesn’t come. Then the body starts to rebel. Illness kicks in. See, the body says, I’ll show you…what do you do now matters. Take pills for symptoms and live worse or clean up your act? Bodies never came with owner manuals. It came with simple science and then humans walked far far away from that.

#42

How could i say you are not right?
I the cravings for your next dose of carbs more than well. That was my main reason to write my initial posting here. But still „a real“ drug works differently.

I stayed on Keto in the meantime. Did not have a single day of cheating, just about 20 grams of cheesecake on Halloween. And i still love my two teaspoons of peanutbutter a day.

To sums things up:
I absolutely believe in the ketogenic diet,
I saw and still see the benefits everyday.
Not only did i lose 20 kilos but also feel cured from minor depressive episodes that i now see the main reason for in high carb consumption.
I am now 44 years old and i am in the best shape in the last 15 years.

BUT: Da*n, my wife just baked cookies the other day. And i could have eaten them all. Instead i had a piece of the size the tip of my pinkie.

#43

Just by repeating it again and again it will not become less wrong. The effects may be similar. A conventional drug however works in a completely different was.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #44

It’s my understanding that sugar triggers a dopamine response the same way many intoxicating drugs do. It stimulates the pleasure center in the brain, the dopamine is pumped out and you feel good. As the dopamine levels drop a repeat experience is wanted reenforced by the drop in energy and BG levels.

As someone who used prescription pain medication for 23 years and was hooked to the gills as they say (now free) I know very well what opiate withdrawal feels like. I had my first med free day a little over a year ago, a week before I started eating KETO. I was amazed at how similar but to a lesser degree, how carb withdrawal felt.

KETO flu felt just like first day opiate withdrawal to me. All too familiar of a feeling. You can say sugar isn’t a drug or doesn’t have the same physiological mechanism as drugs do if you like but the similarities are uncanny from my experience. :cowboy_hat_face:

#45

Keto flu is electrolyte problem.
Missing carbs is something else but it was similar to a severe lack of sodium when I fasted too long without having any idea about electrolytes… I felt drunk and dizzy and wanted food while I felt like a zombie and wanted fruits when I had very little carbs (giving up added sugar was the easiest thing ever, low-carb went well but keto was out of my comfort zone first). But it was the same strong want. Too little salt, enough food and ketosis resulted in very slight dizzyness only, I didn’t desire anything.
I know nothing about real drug withdrawal but it can be similar, why not? Very different happenings in the body may cause similar symptoms.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #46

Partly…electrolytes help alleviate the symptoms but carb withdrawal is part of it too. If I am low on electrolytes now it get muscle spasms or a headache. Quite different from my first KETO week. Mental torment, weak, sick feeling.

#47

Dr. Robert Lustig refers to sugar as a poison. A dose-dependent chronic liver toxin. He also calls it the alcohol of the child.

@David_Stilley congrats on kicking the meds and the sugar!

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #48

I don’t like the term ‘keto flu’ because keto is not the problem. Carb withdrawal is a much better and more accurate description of what’s going on. Essentially what happens is glucose drops because you’re not replenishing it with carby foods. At some point gluconeogenesis kicks in to insure that your brain and red blood cells continue to function. At the same time glycogen stores get drawn down to the point of general fatigue and weakness. This all happens by the end of day 2 of a water fast.

Lipolysis and ketosis are triggered by low glucose and insulin. Metabolic disorders ranging from slight insulin resistance to full-on T2D can and do interfere with both lipolysis and ketosis. Depending upon these and many other factors the switch from glucose/glycogen to fatty acids/ketones for energy can be imperceptible to agonizingly slow.

Yes, electrolytes can help relieve many of the symptoms. But often, the problem is the body’s inability to utilize fatty acids and ketones. Glycogen is pretty much gone and glucose is at or near base level. And nothing much is being done with the available fatty acids and ketones that are now floating around unused. How long it lasts depends on how long it takes to start using them.

(Jane) #49

You are moving the goal posts now from out-of-control eating of sugar all day (junk food) to an apple pie with fruit from your own garden.

In fact, I plan to cook a full sugar apple pie for Thanksgiving but it is a twice-a-year treat, not daily or weekly or even monthly.

But that is not what you are dealing with. If you could have a reasonable amount of carby foods without binging you wouldn’t be back in the same place as you started. Only you can control your binges and over-indulgences.

I can say from experience in my house that you CAN eat higher carbs and maintain your weight but it can’t be ice cream, candy and other crap. A serving of mashed potatoes on maintenance? No problem… as long as it doesn’t set off a binge.

If you want carbs, stick to real, whole food. No sugar. No processed foods.

Good luck.

#50

Thanks! After I wrote it, I had a thought maybe it’s not that easy but on another forum it was a frequent sentence and it’s surely a very big part of it… As I didn’t have carb withdrawal when I actually went into ketosis after low-carb (it was really easy and smooth then) and people are different, making different potential mistakes in the beginning, I don’t have a good enough idea how that feels.

#51

So true, thank you Janie.
Good luck for you too, enjoy your apple pie and have a small piece for me too :slight_smile:

#52

Well David, who am i to tell you what to think. Or want to believe i should say.
I am just glad that science works differently, excuse me

(Ian) #53

I stay on the keto train not because of weight loss, body image, etc, but because I am convinced it will allow me to live as long as possible in the best health as possible so that I can enjoy life to the fullest with my children and grandchildren. When I compare the short term high of satisfying a sweet tooth carb addiction, to the long term health benefits, I can now walk past those cookies without too much trouble.

However, it did take some time to fight the cravings (3-4 months) and I believe it will become less of a problem with time, for the whole community, as the food industry catches up with our lifestyle and wallets and starts to offer up keto friendly snacks and indulgences .