Degrees of Good? And how does that change with time?

#1

Hello again.

My little keto adventure is proceeding well. I do 5 days ful keto + 2 days (out of ketosis) with moderate carbs to make it sustainable. On four of the five keto days I also do OMAD. It’s clearly working though one notices the weekend leads to an increase in weight (hopefully mostly water) which is then lost in the following days. I will have to wait 6-8 weeks to see whether the 5/2 regime is sufficient to lose weight, but I am confident it is. Weight loss is not my priority, though. General health is.

After my holiday in Italy, I have started taking Berberine. No side effects at all, and I intend to keep taking it for its potential anti-aging effects. What I have noticed, though, is that after taking the berberine my keto breath (actually: acetone) meter shows much higher values, which is not the case if I forgot to take it. In my ignorance, I assume this is because the berberine helps to clear out the glucose from the blood, thus enhancing the keto production.

Now I have the following questions:

  1. Is there a “more is better” in the process, in the sense that if your ketosis is “higher” it is more difficult to get out of ketosis, or the fat burning process is faster, or the appetite loss bigger, etc? Or is it so, that you either are in ketosis or you aren’t, and the rest can’t be measured properly due to other variables? My breath analyser says “between 10 and 40 full ketosis”, but it does not say “between 10 and 40 increasingly better ketosis”.

  2. How does this change with the time? As I get more fat-adapted/better at ketosis, I think I will produce less ketones, which will, presumably, reflect in my readings. How do I know if I am just getting better, or whether some less helpful food has introduced itself in my routine? Will it happen after , say, a year, or in a matter of a month or two? I eat a very varied diet and could never do the things I read around, with people eating the same every day, hence, the need to know how valid an indication my measurements are as the months go on. Yesterday my breath analyser said moderate ketosis (no Berberine the night before), this morning it said full ketosis (Berberine yesterday night).

Thanks to all in advance

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #2

No. Dr. Stephen Phinney, who coined the term “nutritional ketosis” says that 0.5 mmol/dL of serum β-hydroxybutyrate is the point at which they see benefits in research subjects, so that is how they define it. He further says that while 1.0 mmol/dL might be better, there is no additional benefit to a ketone level higher than that.

In practical terms, what we are really interested in is lowering serum insulin, so that it’s deleterious effects on the body end, and it is no longer trapping fat inside cells. There is a threshold, above which insulin tells cells to metabolise glucose and store fat, and below which, the lack of insulin allows fat to be released and metabolised. Insulin slows the metabolism, making it hard to use energy; lack of insulin allows the metabolism to speed up, especially fatty-acid metabolism.

Insulin is necessary for life (we see that untreated Type I diabetics die without it), but too much causes cells to resist its effects. All the chronic diseases that plague our society are actually manifestations of insulin-resistance and hyperinsulinaemia.

And yes, ketone production gets better matched to demand over time, especially once the skeletal muscles become fat-adapted and start metabolising fatty acids in preference to ketones and glucose (thus sparing them for the cells that cannot do without them). Remember that circulating β-hydroxybutyrate is only what has not yet been used, not necessarily how much the liver is producing.

#3

Many thanks Paul, excellent answer as always!

#4

It is an interesting approach for health. The 5:2 diet was brought into the main stream by UK media doctor Michael Mosely.

To me it is a mish-mash of ideas. But like any change in eating, it can get results. Especially if the people who try it are eating whole foods.

#5

To me it’s not a matter of choice. It’s a matter of sustainability. I am mainly looking for a healthier living (I am only a few pounds overweight), and five days on keto, of which 4 on OMAD, will certainly do the trick.
If I can’t permanently lose, say, 8 pounds in the next 8 months (I am happy with little) then I will have to decide whether I want to do something like 4 weeks of keto only or live with my weight.

(Alec) #6

I find removing carbs completely is more sustainable than having some. But then I was (and am) a carb addict.

#7

It’s surely individual. And may change for some people like me.
I always did on/off keto as I couldn’t stick to keto for long but on/off was nice. As long as I could behave on my off days… Sometimes it’s harder than other times. And my body really hates when I go too far since it knows what staying nicely low carb in average feels like…
In summer I pretty much do something similar to keto (close to carnivore, it’s easier for me) on weekdays (I am not THAT good to do it perfectly but that was the plan) and I am more relaxed in the weekend when it would be super hard to stick to keto or carnivore. If I do it really well, it’s still a keto weekend after carnivore-ish days… But I went low-carb about 13 years ago and keto is an old close acquaintance too… Even carnivore feels pretty normal to me now, I just get tempted out of it a lot.

I can relate (if we doesn’t count animal carbs) but mere keto doesn’t do that. All the carbs on keto messed with me and I couldn’t stick to it (except before fat adaptation when I was on a mission and keto was novel and exciting, I love challenges too). It’s easier for me to stick to carnivore (especially if I allow a tiny bit of extra when I feel the need :wink: ).
But when it’s summer or autumn or December I guess, the promise of more carbs in the weekend helps me to stay on track for some days. And if I eat more carbs, I quickly desire carnivore again. So this cycle can work.

It may be temporal. Not everyone can go cold turkey, we need to do things somewhat gradually, one way or another. We may welcome crutches. But I can totally imagine some people find on/off keto a permanent solution. I did it out of necessity as I was unable to do keto all the time but my keto was too carby for me eventually. Others have other journeys, some people even leave keto for mere low-carb as that works better for them. I can imagine almost any combos, people have wonderfully different needs, be it physical or other…

(Peter - Don't Fear the Fat ) #8

Maybe a little harsh but for me eating carbs 2 days a week would undo what I’m trying for.
Or even like an alcoholic drinking 2 days a week. Very addictive stuff that sugar.

(Robin) #9

Amen, brother.
An old addict like me knows how to draw a hard line in the sand and never cross it… it’s my super power.

(KM) #10

And it may, I hate to say the word, have some to do with calories. My metabolism is slow, I’m small, and older. I’m also pretty sedentary. My actual calorie consumption at weight maintenance is around 1300 cal if I’m doing keto. If I swap that for a day of high carb (likely more calories but even at that same calorie count), I both lose the keto advantage and have a body thrilled to be socking away glycogen, it takes me 2-3 days to burn that off and get back in ketosis again.

#11

What data will you use to confirm general health? With only 8 lbs to lose, not sure why you would do OMAD? I see OMAD as an extreme starvation diet. OMAD will play havoc with your hormones and downregulate your metabolism. If you had 80 pounds to lose, then maybe. Instead, I would eat keto six days a week, IF twice per week, and feast on Sundays. While berberine has been shown to be effective at lessening the effects of carbs, I only use it before a big carb meal. It definitely loses its effectiveness over time.

When I first started the keto journey 13+ years ago, I wanted to keep it simple. I did a blood test and a DEXA before I started under the supervision of a medical doctor and a sports scientist doctor. I followed up 3 months later with the same blood test and DEXA scan. I had lots of data. I measured my blood ketones because I was told it was more accurate than other methods. I ate nothing that was white or could be white; eggs were the exception. I increased my H2O and fat. I achieved my goals in a very short time. I generally eat a lower-carb diet Monday through Friday and Ad Libitum on the weekend.

#12

You see it very wrong. Since when it’s starvation when we eat plenty of food and feel fine without all the hunger that multiple meals may give us?
Of course, OMAD can paired with starvation. That is doing it WRONG.
And it’s not for everyone. No one said it is.

There are people overeating on OMAD. OMAD says nothing about our energy balance… It’s just timing.

I surely wrote it before reacting to the same but we are humans :smiley: Not shrews or hummingbirds. It’s not starvation if we don’t eat for 23 hours, it’s a very short fast, not even EF!
(Of course we can do longer fasts on OMAD too. But not very long ones.)

(KM) #13

There’s actually a woman running the Buchinger Wilhelmi fasting clinic, Dr. Francoise Wilhelmi de Toledo, who refers to our society as “fasting deprived” - in other words, that the human body is designed for periods of low/no nutrition and to supply it with a never-ending stream of nutrition every few hours day in and day out forever without cease is not optimal at all.

#14

I don’t know if my body needs fasts when eating normally… But it definitely wanted fasting days on overeating high-carb! I used to have days, once in a blue moon when the idea of eating was off-putting. So I fasted. I always thought (well, after going low-carb, being a bit more knowledgeable and having some vague idea about how much I ate back then) that my body really needed a break.

Did she say how long these periods are supposed to be?
By the way, LOW nutritious is something I can’t do, it’s horrible, unbearable to me. If my digestive system is stimulated, a little food won’t cut it! I get super hungry.
Zero is much better as I easily am satiated there. For a little while. Probably longer too (I have plenty of extra fat) but not without some hunger for a while first and I don’t stand hunger.

#15

In my experience (YMMV) OMAD is pleasant and healthy.

It works in this way: I eat to satiety, once a day, Keto food.

I am never hungry, actually I never think about food now. When I eat, I eat well. I am, therefore, always sated.

Fasting puts several processes in motion that are healthy, from detox to autophagy. Losing the weight I have in excess would be good because it would reduce interstitial fat, but as I am low in that it isn’t a high priority, either.

Also: I am not addicted to carbs and don’t overindulge. I enjoy my 90g of pasta in the weekend is all.

Again, “horses for courses”…

(KM) #16

Well this is a clinic setting, in Germany, so they’re talking about long fasting - 7 days to a month. But I took from some of what I’ve read from her that she feels the body needs to “mix it up” - IF one day, OMAD another, a lengthier period now and again. This is a sample interview with Francoise , her tips on getting the most out of a longer fast. I just enjoy her energy very much.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #17

That may well be, except I’d eliminate the “low/” from “low/no nutrition.” Low nutrition is the famine signal, which causes the body to hunker down and conserve resources. No nutrition, on the other hand, means we need to go out and hunt, so it’s not time to cut back on energy.

(KM) #18

Yes … no? It seems that optimally we never put the body in famine mode for fat loss or metabolic health, yet that must have been the case for early humans some of the time. A few berries, a couple of grasshoppers, a tuber, that’s what I found today, and yesterday, and the day before. I doubt every day was all or nothing.

For the record, this clinic serves a broth soup once a day, staying in the realm of what I’d call true fasting.

#19

Oh my. NEVER. I would be so paranoid about my muscles (I managed to be that 1.5 days into a fat fast once. it can’t be helped, it’s not fully rational)… Hungry too and miserable, bad deal, not hedonistic at all!
48-72 hours sounds good if my body ever cooperates again. That’s cute. If autophagy isn’t at its best, so be it.
But I can imagine people who need to eat every day to feel fine. They should handle some fasting (I mean beyond the tiny one people normally do when they don’t eat all the time when awake) as every human who isn’t too sick or emacinated for it but they probably are fine without it. They should do some way bigger impact changing their lifestyle, probably…

I personally like to keep my days similar, it feels best :slight_smile: But eventually some change happen anyway (sometimes a huge one), that is fine too, main thing I still eat okay and I don’t force anything. But the goal is keeping may days similar, I feel the urge for it physically and mentally, it feels best as I wrote. The exception is my regular higher-cal days especially when losing fat. Keeping a tiny deficit every day for long is abnormal for me. Though it may change, who knows? It is just about my past.

IF every day is basic, I actually am disappointed when I have a day with a huge, 9 hour eating window (6 is already big for me). It’s individual.
But indeed, I have read many people saying switching things up. Each to their own, I say, I am not interested, sounds quite incompatible with me, I have a strong resistance against doing it intentionally.
Not like I can decide on timing rules and following them, mostly my body decides when it wants to eat, it’s not like I have much power on it… I get properly hungry, I eat, how could I not? My body tells me to eat. I don’t argue with my body (if I am not stupid). It’s just about me, not others. I am glad if I know and understand myself to some extent! :smiley: And humans are so wonderfully different.

I will watch the video, I still am interested in EF even if I lost the ability to do it for a while and even if I don’t plan to make long ones. But who knows, maybe once again? I did 5 days once, it was interesting but didn’t do anything noticeable. I was curious, it’s an important driving power.

You have a point. It makes sense very low food shouldn’t cripple one just like no food doesn’t… I still wouldn’t ever do it voluntarily as it feels zillion times worse (and some more as my fasts were just fine) than just fasting. BUT the only time I starved out of curiosity it wasn’t that bad. It was worse than not eating at all but not by much and I had the urge to eat if I had a little food. And I had a little food. Less and less. The end was onions cooked in water with vinegar… I hated onion soup for weeks afterwards…
I don’t know if the mindset (or something that caused the mindset, in my case, not being able to much against it) is able to change our body’s responses regarding metabolism, for example… But I definitely felt no strong hunger (or cold) when I simply couldn’t eat much (and was in a cold, unheated house, it was snow outside. I had warm clothes though). It seems something in me decided it’s not hedonistic to feel cold or strong, really bad hunger, we can’t help it but we surely can choose not suffering! It may sound weird, it was, I only had this once. If I am in a way warmer house nowadays, I am freezing and feel the urge to turn on the heating. My mind knows I have that option now…

Of course, the metabolism can’t help but slow down when starving (well it can not do it if the body works wrong, it’s very important to spare with the energy for survival… but not to the point where the one can’t function, go hunt or something. but surely some people have it broken) - but maybe the extent, the starting point and other things change a bit when it’s not voluntary…? Am I too weird here? I have no idea, I just wondering knowing the human mind can do some surprising things…
Maybe it’s not weird at all.

I probably would refuse it. Broth is a wonderful gateway food, it tends to spectacularly raise appetite, hunger too if that was low as well (at least when I already feel I need food) so I use it in cases when I am quite hungry or feel the need for refuel but my appetite is negative so I can’t eat. I still can drink and after the broth I get back my ability and urge to eat.
Maybe it’s just for weird ones like me with opposing hunger/appetite/need for food signals… I do have times when broth feels almost food, maybe I could use it hours after a big meal to postpone the next meal but not when it’s my normal mealtime.

(KM) #20

I think the broth is more of a social thing. I’ve never been to this clinic, just seen videos, it seems to be one of those old fashioned settings, almost like a sanitarium, lots of brisk walks and lovely 19th century architecture. People sit together at tables in the dining room, interaction is much encouraged. I would love to try it for the experience, but it’s hugely expensive.

I have actually wondered the same thing, about how ones mood or circumstances might affect physiology. I watch a show sometimes where people are out in the wilderness alone for as long as they can stand it. Granted this is self-inflicted, but it still seems the people with a certain attitude do better