Day #1


#1

Hi. Just found this forum.

Had shoulder surgery yesterday to fix a torn labrum. Thought it might be the perfect time to start this so today is my first day on the KETO diet using a 16:8 intermittent fasting. Hope to get into a state of ketosis pretty quickly.

Any tips for a newbie one day post surgery?


(Susan) #2

Welcome to the forum, Ed =). Best wishes for repairing your injury and just do Keto and you will see great results =).


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #3

Just curious, Ed. Why did you decide to start keto with 16:8 intermittent fasting? Seems a bit odd the day after surgery that likely requires some healing to occur. Stop eating carbs and replace with fat will get you into ketosis within a couple of days. Otherwise, best wishes.


#4

Hi Michael.

I did some research on KETO and was already familiar with intermittent fasting so I researched to see if doing them concurrently is feasible. The one that caught my attention was 16:8. Assuming you sleep eight hours a night and have an eight hour window for eating, that leaves eight hours left I could divideā€¦eat four hours after I wake up and stop eating four hours before going to bed. Sounded logical to me.

I am in a position where I need to lose around 20 pounds and 2-3 inches around my waist by sometime in January.

I had surgery on my right shoulder back in April. After the initial nerve block wore off, I had to take pain meds for about three days which had me sleeping a lot.

Had surgery on my left shoulder yesterday. Drawing on my first experience, it seemed logical to start this now since fasting is much easier while youā€™re asleep! LOL

So this morning, I started with a glass of cold water. Then had a cup of coffee with MCT oil powder and organic extra virgin coconut oil. After that, I had half of a 3 egg omelette with full fat shredded cheese, bits of bacon and I actually threw some walnuts in it. Was pretty good.

In the meantime, I took a cucumber and blended it in some water, put it in a pitcher with half of a cucumber sliced and filled the rest of the pitcher with water for some cucumber water. Will let it sit for a while before drinking. If needed, am thinking about throwing some lemon and maybe stevia in each glass to taste. Or maybe not. Some people swear by cucumber and lemon infused water as a good detox. In any case, cucumbers have B vitamins so it will make for a refreshing hydrating drink.

Fortunately, I donā€™t have to go to work until the middle of December then itā€™s only half-time so I have more than enough time to perfect this without the stress of work.

But, I do need to have 20 pounds and 2-3 inches gone by the middle of January.


#5

Hi Susan. Thanks for the response.

You said ā€œjust do Ketoā€ but my research says the the level of commitment can be the difference between being in full ketosis or not which of course, would affect your results.

My non-self-imposed goal is 20 pounds and 2-3 inches around my waist by the middle of January. Iā€™m hoping this works so I donā€™t have to use more drastic measures!


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #6

Thanks for your detailed response. My concern is primarily about recovery from your surgery which may be complicated if you donā€™t eat sufficiently to give yourself enough fuel to do it quickly and completely. A lot of stuff happens when you begin keto that you may or may not be aware of: hormones and enzymes readjust, cells and organs readjust, overall metabolism resets, accumulated crap goes out, and many other things. All at the same time. Recovering from surgery (and especially any medications required) may complicate this. As well all the changes caused by ketosis may complicate your recovery from surgery. The last thing you want to experience is severe carb withdrawal! But, maybe not. Let us know how it goes for the first couple of weeks.

Aside from all that, the general recommendation seems to be that fasting is something better left until after your initial adjustments to keto. But Iā€™ll let the serious ā€˜fastersā€™ comment about that. BTW @Momof5 is one of them, and Iā€™m sure she has more to say about it.

That said, an initial water fast for several days is an efficient way to get yourself into ketosis quickly. I did a 4-day water fast and was in ketosis the morning of the third day. It only hurts on day 2 when the glucose guage hits empty. Not eating for a couple of days is not going to cause any serious repercussions for your surgery recovery, especially if youā€™re spending most of the time in bed. If youā€™re not seriously insulin resistant, in which case it will take longer, even before your glucose and glycogen burn out, your metabolism will switch to fatty acids and start synthesizing ketones. Most folks, though, just taper off the carbs and replace them with fat over the course of a week or two or three. That method is pretty painless.

BTW, not eating between supper and breakfast is what everyone used to do until eating 24/7 became the vogue 40 years ago. Depending on timing, that could be 10-12 hours fasted each day.


(Susan) #7

I will be more specific then =).

Eat no more then 20 grams (or less if you can, the less the better) of carbs a day, NO Sugar, no sugar substitutes if you can (they cause trouble as well for many of us so if you can remove them as well this will be good), fatty proteins and healthy fats, water and make sure you get enough Electrolytes. If you want to do IF of 16:8 that means not eating daily for 16 hours (so no food from supper until 16 hours later, and only have 2 meals in that eight hours with no snacks) so either breakfast and lunch or lunch and supper. Just so you know what the 16:8 is.

I personally have lunch at 1pm then no calories until supper at 4:30 so no food or calories from 5pm until 1pm the next day --20:4 IF -20 hours of fasting a day on the days I eat. That is pretty strict for someone just starting though. I started with 3 meals a day, doing 12:12 (12 hours fasting, 12 hours eating 3 meals with no snacks between). Then I went to 16:8 then to the 20:4.

You can also use cronometer.com to keep track -it is free =).


(PSackmann) #8

HI and welcome!

I started keto in January and had foot surgery in early February. Post-op I focused on eating healthy foods from scratch, keeping the carbs down, and drinking bone broth several times daily to aid in healing. I let my body lead me as far as hunger went, some days I was much hungrier than others. It worked well, the lack of inflammation cut the healing time in half. By the time I was back to weight-bearing, I was pretty well fat adapted.

For you, the 16:8 can work if you make sure to eat plenty of food in that 8 hour period. Healing takes protein as well as fats, so donā€™t skimp. You should get a touch of autophagy in that 16 hour period, enough to help with the healing. Oh, one more thing, keep your fat intake up to counter-act the effects of any opioids or the anesthetic. Trust me, youā€™ll thank me later.

Heal well and KCKO!


#9

The four day water fast is something Iā€™ve never heard of and goes against all conventional wisdom. Iā€™ll have to research that one and collect some initial thoughts on it.

The surgery was to repair a torn labrum. I sleep in my recliner bur aside from that, Iā€™m up all day but thatā€™s not to say I donā€™t doze.

I figured since every one ā€œfastsā€ while they sleep, that adding a few hours on both sides would equal a pretty decent daily fast.

Speaking of fuel for recovery, are you speaking specifically about carbs? I have my first post-surgery follow-up next Monday so Iā€™ll bring that up in conversation.


#10

Susan, weā€™re on the same page mostly. My thought on the fasting part is, based upon eight hours of sleep and an eight hour food window, that leaves eight hours so four hours on both sides of sleep makes the 16 hour fast. Easier to fast while youā€™re asleep!

I am subscribing to the 20 grams or fewer carbs daily. I havenā€™y used sugar since 2004 when I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes which I reversed in six months.

The electrolytes are not an issue. I focus on that on a daily basis already.

Iā€™m working on three smaller meals during the eight hours of eating. Definitely nothing big but still focusing on the micros. I just had a medium salad of dark leafy greens and full fat ranch dressing. I need to go buy some seeds to put in the salad. My first meal was half of a three egg omelet with full fat shredded cheese, bacon cut into pieces and a few walnuts mixed in. My last meal will be finished by 8:00, most likely some celery and natural peanut butter.

Iā€™m also thinking perhaps a protein shake before bed instead. If I use whey protein, I can add coconut oil for the added fat but I may get some casein protein instead. What are your thoughts on that?


#11

Iā€™m definitely focusing on the fats to include organic natural peanut butter, organic extra virgin coconut oil and fatty protein such as 73% ground beef, rump roast and sardines in louisiana hot sauce.

I use organic turmeric tea powder which includes matcha green tea, turmeric root, cinnamon, ginger root and black pepper for inflammation. I usually throw in some Braggs organic apple cider vinegar with the mother in sometime during the day.

Someone earlier today mentioned a four day water fast to get into ketosis quickly and that just goes against all conventional wisdom to me.


(Susan) #12

I commented on the foods you mentioned on your other thread. I have never found a salad dressing yet that doesnā€™t contain some sort of sugar or sugar substitute, and/or vegetable/seed oils. I wouldnā€™t use the whey protein or protein shakes either, or the peanut butter or walnuts as they are both high in carbs. I would get cronometer to track your food to see how many carbs you are having, as many people are surprised they think they are under 20 and then they think wow I am having 40ā€¦ it is a free app.

For salads I use Chosen food avocado mayonnaise and some EVOO at times (not always adding the EVOO).


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #13

LOL! What ā€˜conventional wisdomā€™ is that? Inquiring minds want to know. :thinking:

Fung recommends 3-4 day fasts (and longer!) as therapeutic and especially helpful for autophagy. I suppose because it guarantees youā€™ll be in ketosis for at least a couple days even if you go back to eating carbs afterwards. Keep in mind that although Fung advocates ketogenic eating, he has to deal with real world situations where people are eating SAD and arenā€™t going to do any different.

On the other hand, Phinney doesnā€™t think fasting for more than 48 consecutive hours accomplishes anything more than just being in ketosis. He doesnā€™t think autophagy is particularly significant. Although, I donā€™t follow his thoughts on this, so maybe Iā€™m outdated on this. Donā€™t know.

Lastly, I will readily admit that most folks on this forum did not get into ketosis initially with a 4-day fast! Iā€™ve had people remark essentially that it sounds like an exercise in masochism. But so what? I did it. It worked and it really only hurt for one day. Itā€™s no different from doing longer fasts, which many people on this forum do as a matter of course. In fact, some people on this forum do a 2-3 day fast every week! Now thatā€™s against all conventional wisdom to me!


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #14

If you hang around here long enough, you will discover that Iā€™m one of the local advocates for ā€˜the fewer carbs the betterā€™ school of thought. While I wasnā€™t speaking about carbs per se, since you ask: eating carbs gives you nothing you need and introduces multiple points of entry for problems you donā€™t. Carbs should be minimal and strictly incidental to fat and protein rich foods.


(Susan) #15

I am currently doing 3 -44 hour fasts once a week, following this until Nov 30 --with two other ladies on the forum. We are big fans of fasting around here, not everyone fasts, but many of us love it.

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This is what I am doing atm until November 30 -along with this, I am having no Dairy until then too. It says on there 42 hours but I like to keep my 20:4 protocol so I am still doing 1pm and 4:30 on my eating days, making it a 44 hour fast on the fasting days.


(PSackmann) #16

It may not bother you, whey protein raises my blood sugar and insulin, and bloats me to boot.

This is a good start, eventually I worked to two larger meals a day, with larger periods of time between eating. That brought my insulin levels down for several hours during the day, as well as outside of my eating window. Insulin drops 2-3 hours after eating, so reducing the number of meals gives you more time with lower insulin levels, thus less inflammation, which is a prime goal for post-op healing.

Iā€™m not a long-faster myself, but itā€™s not a bad idea for those with severe insulin resistance or with a lot to lose. Dr. Jason Fung often starts his patients with 4 day water fasts, to help them get over cravings and enter ketosis more quickly. If you havenā€™t already, get a copy of his Breaking the Obesity Code (itā€™s on Kindle), itā€™s a great read during recovery.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #17

I use both whey powder and casein daily. I have zero issues with either, but then I have zero issues with dairy in general (northern European genetics). I use whey in my morning keto coffee. I use casein in my evening meal, usually in some sort of dessert. Since whey digests faster, I want to get it into my system quickly in the morning. Casein, on the other hand, digests more slowly. So Iā€™m content to let it do so while Iā€™m sleeping.

In both cases, however, I use products with low carbs. For example PVL ISO Gold whey contains 3.23 grams of carbs per 100; and, AllMax ISO whey contains 3.33 grams of carbs per 100. AllMax FX Casein contains 6.1 grams of carbs per 100. In the quantities that I use them, I consume 1 gram of carbs whey and about 2-3 grams of carbs casein.


(Full Metal KETO AF) #18

Just out of curiosity is this some sort of bet? Whoā€™s imposing this weight loss on you, and why is it so important that you would need to resort to ā€œdrastic measuresā€ (whatever that is!)? :cowboy_hat_face:


(bulkbiker) #19

Far more likely that Phinney is Iā€™m afraidā€¦heā€™s been banging on about the ā€œdangersā€ of fasting for years with little to no evidence that I have seen. We are all victims of the time we were educated to some extentā€¦ even the ā€œrebelsā€.