Creative Eating/Fasting: Calorie variation on Eating points

(PJ) #1

I’ve done a lot of fasting over time, and sometimes do it naturally for lack of appetite or distraction. For whatever reason, my body has no problem with hunger. If I’m fasting and start feeling bad-capital-B, I figure that’s body’s answer and I stop, no big deal. I’ve not fasted longer than 32 days in my life, no longer than 14 days this year, but I fairly commonly will fast 16-36 hours or so… intermittently, in the literal sense of the word. Alright, intro out of the way…

I am curious about what readers in this topic (those who have read/watched a lot of stuff about it) might have seen about calorie variation on the eating points. I know there’s all kinds of opinions about it, but have you seen any studies with variations?

Second Q. Let’s say I begin fasting, and then before bed break the fast with a supplement (protein drink and some supps for the liver). But that is ALL I do for say, three days of it. Does the body see this as ~20 hours of fast, break, 20 hours of fast, break, 20 hours of fast? Or just, underate radically for three days? That is the reason for my calorie question above. I’d like to see if I could do that for about three days, and then on the four, have a full day of fairly high cal (and higher carb) food, in a cycle. I can always experiment, but I’m a fan of seeing if someone else has already tried it and what the results might have been. Since plans are always open to improvement. :slight_smile:

Thanks.
PJ

(Robert C) #2

From a weight loss perspective it comes down to calories.

An 80 calorie scoop of protein and some liver pills would be similar (calorie wise) to what some people take in when they fast with daily bone broth. The body will not see that super low level of input as a new low food environment it should try to adapt to and so your fasting adaptions will pause for a little while but pretty much continue soon after.
But, a big old 400+ calorie monster shake (powder, heavy cream, MCTs…or just lots of powder to make a thick shake, whatever) might be a different story - maybe fooling the body into thinking (at least for the night) it is in a low food environment but also likely to turn it from fat burning to fat storage for the whole night (after all - it has calories and is famished). With this many calories you should think of yourself on something more like a 16/8 fast as you’ll be digesting it all night and not really “fasting” again until you skip breakfast.

From an autophagy and fasting adaptation perspective it might not be a good idea.
Autophagy helps get rid of bad proteins (potentially good for cancer prevention) and (according to Jason Fung and Megan Ramos) fasting helps you avoid loose skin (where autophagy might be getting rid of excess skin and skin tags, instead of what everyone worries about, which is losing muscle). But, autophagy is very nutrient sensing - especially protein. What you are proposing is turning off autophagy nightly for 3 nights for a probably-not-very-satiating-at-all little protein drink (as well as stopping or slowing other fasting adaptations like increased metabolism and increased HGH). A 3-day fast without those shakes would be just about as difficult but far more effective in this area (in fact it may be more difficult to have the protein shakes as they may drive hunger).

(PJ) #3

Thanks very much.

My body tells me in meditations it wants nitrogen while I sleep (protein). (I’m coming from a decade+ of serious medical malnourishment, though I’m surface-recovered.) But I want to eat a lot less calories than I need so I can lose more fat.

If I under-eat, I fork my metabolic rate. If I fast, I’m not feeding body the protein during sleep she requested. So I thought well I’ll just do that. Yep, I know it’ll interrupt the fast, and I know it’s likely to drive hunger. I was hoping it might be a compromise, only for a few-days cycle, and that there might be some data already that related.

It’s less an interrupted fast I suppose than a 1MAD which is profoundly low on calories (just a simple protein drink, no fats/carbs hardly, but it’ll spark mTOR). I guess I am hoping that maybe the ~20 hours from ‘finished digesting’ to next sleep drink would still be worthwhile and might help to stave off the “under-eating” bad side-effects with some body sense of fasting instead, even though it’s not for very long.

(Robert C) #4

That’s kind of a specific request :grinning:

One thing you might consider is just bone broth. Common for this situation and very nutrient dense - including some protein. Much better (in my opinion) than a refined powder. Known to work and not interrupt a weight loss fast (per IDM).

(Karen) #5

I may be wrong but I’m pretty sure that IDM does not recommend fasting for people with eating disorders, or with past eating disorders. If that is the case here you should probably skip the fast

(PJ) #6

Thanks you guys.

Fwiw, I never had an eating disorder. I had an undiagnosed birth defect in a heart valve that caused many years (slowly worsening) of loss of oxygen and nutrients into the body as edema, and eventually, a profound anorexia as a side effect from the internal cumulative malnourishment. (Just lack of appetite. Not nervosa, which is the psych condition.) After open heart surgery it resulted in someone who weighed over 500# (some was edema) and was nearly whole body atrophied from bedridden, and yet who needed an anorexia recovery diet like people who weigh 82# from starving themselves for years. Weird juxtaposition there. I’m still working on being healthier and gradually losing more weight, but trying very hard not to malnourish myself or further torque my BMR while doing so. It’s an ongoing experiment…

Bone broth doesn’t have nearly the amount of protein that a protein powder does is the thing, and via powder I can do casein that slow digests. At least that was my logic. I actually make bone broth every week and drink it, love the stuff!! (Using roasted chicken bones, skin, meat, feet, and gizzards and hearts.) But you’re right that maybe it would be a consideration during a fast (because its very low protein might keep it under mTOR).

I’ll keep looking to see if I find any even N=1 or layman studies but it sounds like it’s not really sussed out yet. Thanks for the response!