Counting calories

(ripkin) #42

Hi all,

I’m new here, just posting to chime in and describe my experience. Hope this is helpful for those who might read it and not too off topic for this thread.

I’ve tried Keto 3-4 times in my life, each subsequent time wound up falling off the wagon. This time has since been a little different—the start of the change kind of came with the acknowledgement and admission that I am a full fledged carb/food addict, and that there must be a way to “eat for sobriety.”.

The fact that sugars + fats produce a similar dopamine response in the brain to what might happen with cocaine is pretty well known to me, and was easier to recognize once I admitted that I was eating for reasons other than to fuel my body. The carb->insulin response followed by feelings of satiation for sooooo many people is reinforcing, like a drug—it certainly was/is for me. That said, even though keto foods don’t spike insulin and being fat adapted helped tremendously with the ups/downs of cravings, emotional eating, and the reinforcing effects of food (for the first 2-3 weeks it kinda s*cked, life was less exciting actually)—I was never really able to “limit myself” on Keto to a reasonable amt of food until I started counting calories in addition to carbs.

Once I knew the carbs in the “keto staple foods” I ate on a regular basis, I actually stopped counting carbs and only count calories now (except for if I’m trying a new food I haven’t had before). This strategy helped me break through plateaus in wt loss like I have never done before (usually I give up and get down on myself and think about giving up). Now, I tend to “switch” mentalities from “carb counting” to an awareness of overall calories in/out, make sure I have a deficit (increasing exercise, increasing salt/keto-friendly electrolytes, increasing intervals of intermittent fasting and decreasing calories slightly when I eat in the evening), and it works for me. Once I break through the plateau I’ve had some luck easing up a bit, relaxing, decreasing the exercise for a few weeks, until I hit a new plateau.

Just for reference, in case ppl are wondering, I’ve been overweight my whole life (since age 10, max was 335 lbs at age 21), now 38, had once lost 100+ lbs in college, put almost all of it back on after the birth of my kids over 8 yrs (back up to 310—and have now lost about 50 of those pounds again since approx. January 31st, when I started Keto again this last time (now down to about 260), which is fast enough for me not to loose motivation and stay excited about the changes, but slow enough that I’m not feeling unhealthy or worn out. I actually have more energy, and when I do the whole calorie deficit thing with intermittent fasting (I eat btwn 8-10 PM each day only, except for a coffee in the AM with cream) I really barely even notice hunger or any drop in energy because—I think—my body must be using fat stores for energy when I pay attention to calories (and probably not when I don’t, because I may be eating my BMR in calories—even if it’s all keto foods—without even realizing it).

Hope that helps some folks, and it’s not superfluous info or too-off topic.

Glad to find this forum/community!

Good luck to all with everyone’s individual journey to a healthier self.

Best,

Ripkin

(Karen) #43

I’m praying for your dietary fat loss. You clearly have some challenges having been overweight so long. This WILL work! Stay with it.
:pray:
K

(Diane) #44

That’s certainly possible. My own experience suggests that calorie restriction may not work well for those whose metabolisms have been damaged by years and years of very low calorie, HCLF diets. My body seems primed to jump to the conclusion that it needs to adjust my BMR lower when I’m calorie restricting. Maybe this won’t be the case further down the line when I’m less insulin resistant or my body has healed other types of underlying damage.

The differences in all our experiences is one reason being a part of this community is so powerful. My n=1 experience is different than yours, but someone else might find a suggestion that will work well for them.

#45

I see. I guess it’s just confusing because I was under the impression that if you were metabolically healthy then your weight would naturally regulate itself into the healthy range.

Thanks for the reply!

(Karl) #46

Yep. Take it all in, try it all out, something has to work.

For me, it’s eat a good meal, see how I feel in 30 minutes. See if that did the trick. Eating lots of fat makes that easy. 2 years in, I have trouble keeping weight ON now.

(Karl) #47

I’m not sure the human body has any idea what a scale number should be. I think those numbers are just made up statistics based on disease-to-body-weight correlation. A person can be 50lb overweight and be metabolically healthy and not have any disease. I think that’s kind of the point of all this.

I think a lot of what the scale number should be is really just presumption. You see a lot of old people. You see a lot of obese people. But you don’t see a lot of old, obese people. So people correlate that to “being obese means you won’t live long.” Obviously that assumption is just that… correlation without causation.

Richard and Carl (as well as people like Jimmy Moore) are probably way more metabolically healthy than a 170lb man who has T2D. But from a clinical, scientific angle, they’re still overwight/obese/what have you… and people are going to judge them on that.

We are a vain society, and we place higher value on people who are thin (hey, I admit it… I like that i’m 6’3" and 165lb, even if my wife thinks i’m too skinny.) I’m not saying it’s right - just that it happens. Even when the truth is that the skinny person in question is shooting insulin X times a day due to T2D.

Anyone can be thin if they starve themselves enough to get there. But as we are all figuring out, it’s only possible to stay there if they can figure out a way to eat that won’t trash them physiologically. That’s the challenge that “Keto” is trying to address, at least in the context of the 2KD.

#48

I agree a healthy weight is not determined by a scale. However, a healthy range would still likely fall into a range of percentages that would vary based on an individual’s lean body mass, bone density, etc.

From what I understand, the dudes are still losing weight, no? This would indicate that despite being metabolically MORE healthy than where they started, they haven’t reached a place where the body self regulates naturally…or do I have it all wrong?

Edit: didn’t want to double post

I disagree. A person cannot be 50lbs overweight and be metabolically healthy. They can be metabolically healthy and be 50lbs overweight according to a BMI, but if they are truly 50lbs overweight according to a body fat percentage, they would not be in a healthy range. This is why I get confused.

(charlie3) #49

Except our metabolisms evolved during a time when life style was radically different. Those people were much fitter than us. They burned more calories. If they were depending on animal food it would be grazing animals. They wake up one morning and fiind the heard has moved out to greener pastures, literally, so they have to follow and may be go a few days without food and that has to be no big deal because iit happens regularly. In contrast we are weak and lazy and flabby by any measure and we don’t have to hike for miles chasing the next meal. If we lived like them there wouldn’t be much obesity so we’d have to talk about something else on the forum.

For me counting caloriies is part of how I simulate scarcity. My kitchen is full of food all the time but I have to not eat it. It just ain’t natural.

#50

I think the body is smarter than that. If we are eating keto, we are eating as we should be eating: sans processed junk. Therefore, with time and consistency, the damage we have done should lessen and we will return to a natural healthy state. Any other animal out there will eat as much as needed and no more when eating the diet they are meant to eat. Just because there is an abundance doesn’t mean we will eat all the things. That is, unless the abundance is sugar/carb ridden junk. Once on the path to healthy, rven of you had 27lbs of bacon sitting in front of you, the body naturally will tell you to consume just what it needs. There is further evidence of this idea as many fat adapted individuals find themselves to start fasting naturally. This also would account for the extra energy some feel once they become fat adapted.

My kitchen is full of food too and when I eat too much sugar and carbs I want to eat all the things. Conversely, when I stay keto, the constant drive to eat lessons. Of course this is anecdotal, but it is something I know many others describe as well, so it is more than just my n=1.

In any case, I still wonder at the possibility of one being metabolically healthy and obese. It’s like it just doesn’t click for me. The best I see is that an obese person can be metabolically healthier than they were before, but still has more work to do. (And I mean obese as in the percentage of body fat rather than BMI). I wish someone would explain it in a way that made the light bulb turn on. I feel like I’m missing something simple, lol.

(Rob) #51

Metabolic health is measurable in a series of objective ways (insulin levels, blood sugar, thyroid function, hormone levels, liver/kidney function, etc.) and it IS possible to be healthy and ‘overweight’ by the BMI or by body fat. It is the BMI that is questionable, not the health side of the equation. “Healthy range of body fat”, etc. is the least objective measure possible since it is ONLY based on visible biases (in the past, plump people were demonstrably healthier than skinny, modern measures of 6-packs and ultra lean don’t exist in nature) and unscientific associations (that all fat people must be sick).

Keto absolutism is a bit of a curse around here. Keto is the one true religion, the science is irrefutable, the body is the ultimate keto engine and will become perfect if we just feed it the right things. Unfortunately this is just NOT true. There are alternative diets 180 degrees opposed to keto that work just as well (e.g. rice/sugar, no fat). Lots of people do thrive on non-keto vegan as much as many of us may hate to admit it. I just met with a friend yesterday who I hadn’t seen for 6 months and he had lost 50lbs just as I have on moderate carb vegan and arguably has had fewer side effects than I have and claims all of the same benefits. Huh! :thinking:

We are all snowflakes :snowflake: in an incredibly complex world. Our genetic makeups are different and mediate different results for the same inputs across people. The vast variation just on KF.com is testament to that. Some people guzzle diet soda, some get put into a tailspin by 2 sips. Our metabolisms start different due to our genes and often just get more diverse due to environmental factors. We are all being poisoned by modernity at different rates which impacts all sorts of things. Lots of people on these boards either have never had or have permanently damaged their satiety signals. Their bodies are FAR from smart enough and need brain intervention constantly. Putting up abstract straw men of metabolic perfection doesn’t help much in the real world, even if that is your n=1 experience.

Just accept you just have an opinion without scientific backing and move on?

(Karl) #52

Based on what metrics? What is the basis you’re using to say a 50lb overwight person is metabolically unhealthy?

#53

Not my intention to straw man anything. Seriously just looking to improve my understanding. I also never claimed to have scientific backing and I do believe I mentioned several times that I was looking for someone to explain it so that it made sense. In any case, I am not disputing that others have successful weight loss with other diets. I am, however, still confused how one can be metabolically healthy whilst overweight, given that there are so many more risks associated with too much weight. I also am not referring to those with a few extra pounds, but those like myself with large amounts of weight to lose. I don’t see how a healthy range of body fat is only based on visible bias/unscientific associations…I am not referring to how one appears but rather a percentage of body fat…how is this not objective and also how is this keto absolutism?

I’m not posting to ruffle feathers; I am seriously looking to understand. If weight is put on by messed up insulin levels and blood sugar and what have you, how can someone who is obese not be metabolically unhealthy? The only way I can wrap my head around it is to assume that someone changing their way of eating and improving their markers, and as a byproduct loses weight, is on their way to metabolic health even if they have not fully achieved it yet.

Perhaps I’m just dense.

#54

How can they be with excessive amounts of body fat? If you store your fat because you’re taking too much in and your insulin levels are preventing you from losing fat, how can that be considered healthy? And, if there are those who have excess body fat, and I’m referring to those with a lot of excess, who do not have metabolic issues, why are they unable to maintain a healthy level of fat on their body when every animal on the planet does so naturally when eating their natural diet? Again, I feel I have to stress that I am not being facetious, but looking for an explanation that makes sense.

(Rob) #55

But you did - you think you know how ‘the body’ works but your understanding is woefully simplistic - that is a classic example of keto absolutism. Because I understand Richard’s lovely simplified model that he does for newbs, e.g.

…then suddenly that is the ONLY way things work. Other options don’t compute (obviously). You are stubbornly sticking to this to a real trolling level. Richard doesn’t believe that, nor should you. 10 seconds of google and you’d stop wasting everyone’s time.

http://www.metabolismjournal.com/article/S0026-0495(01)61910-3/abstract

I told you that the sugar/rice diet (90% carbs) is proven in clinical trials to also improve your metabolic health like keto yet you pretended that was just another ‘weight loss diet’. If this is possible, how can it be impossible for ‘overweight’ people to be metabolically healthy? You have a little obsession with weight (as many dieters do) and refuse to realize that weight does not MAKE you sick. Weight/body fat isn’t even that important no matter how much people obsess over it. The body likes to lay down fat. It’s not the fat that kills you… it’s the chronic inflammation destroying various organs and systems.

How can you not accept that if skinny people can be very metabolically unhealthy (to the point of death) then fat people can be healthy. They could have a genetic issue that means they need fewer calories than most so a normal diet will add weight but not screw their metabolism or are resistant to the insulin impact of carbs, which would be completely independent pathways to weight increase without insulin resistance.

The 2 keto dudes and many obese people here are living proof that you can improve your metabolic AND cardiovascular health to a level that a doctor would call healthy… while still being (very) obese.

Your basic premise of weight being a (implied causative) risk factor to sickness is exactly the medical establishment BS that you have to shake off - it is merely a statistical association - fat people are OFTEN (though far from always) metabolically sick. You CANNOT extrapolate from some statistics that ALL fat people are necessarily metabolically unhealthy.

TL:DR - Enough already.

(Diane) #56

I’m looking for a YouTube video I watched that explained this idea of metaboliy healthy obese people really well. No luck so far. I’ll keep looking.

What I recall from the presentation is that people whose metabolisms can create unlimited baby adipocytes as needed when the existing adipocytes are full of fat, don’t develop the problems that people who DON’T have the ability to do this end up developing.

These MHO people have many smaller fat cells, which don’t leak lipoproteins intercellularly, don’t develop inflammation, don’t develop insulin resistance, don’t end up with dangerous visceral fat, don’t develop DM2, don’t have metabolic syndrome, don’t have increased risk of CVD, etc. All because they are able to produce an unlimited supply of new baby adipocytes as needed. So, they are metabolically healthy.

Obese people who are NOT metabolically healthy, who don’t have this ability to create unlimited baby adipocytes, end up with large, seriously overstuffed adipocytes that can’t take in any more lipoproteins. The body produces more and more insulin to try and override the cell’s refusal to let more fat into the adipocytes. This leads to insulin resistance, leaky adipocytes that cause intercellular inflammation, etc, etc.

I’ll keep looking for the presentation and the scientific references.

Hope this helps.

(Rob) #57

Not sure if this is what you are looking for but Ivor Cummins’ ketofest 2017 presentation explains the MHO/MHNW/MUO/MUNW at 26 minutes.

#58

Well thanks for the information. I’ll stop posting now but I won’t apologize for not doing what you consider to be a sufficient “ten second Google search” and for being confused. And I’m not a troll. There really isn’t any reason to be rude and, quite frankly, this is the sort of attitude that not only turns people off, but makes others hesitant to ask questions or seek information. I came here with the intention of trying to understand a concept and it’s places like this that allow for an open dialogue. It’s unfortunate that you couldn’t afford just the smallest bit of patience and respect in your “effort to educate” and instead chose to belittle and insult.

#59

This actually gives me a direction to further look into. It makes more sense than how I was looking at it. I knew there had to be something I was missing or getting wrong.

Thank you!

#60

Thank you for some direction.

(Rob) #61

The issue isn’t your confusion but it is the constant repetition of an obviously proven false hypothesis 6 times in this thread (sounds very troll like even if it was not your intention). You couldn’t even admit that MHO’s EXIST (that’s what a 10 second google search would have told you) let alone that there must be some metabolic pathway to create them that you don’t understand. You kept repeating your simplified understanding as gospel when several people answered you that it was way more complicated than that.

It would have been far less troll-y to say… OK, MHO’s obviously exist, how does that work?

I’m totally happy to have anyone read this thread and it’s many repeated statements, multiple helpful responses over most of a full day from several members… and draw their own conclusions about the willingness of the community here to respect and help someone who is confused…