Counting calories

[DiMo]

Not the one I was recalling, but great presentation of similar information. Thanks!

[IceNine]

How can they be with excessive amounts of body fat? If you store your fat because you’re taking too much in and your insulin levels are preventing you from losing fat, how can that be considered healthy? And, if there are those who have excess body fat, and I’m referring to those with a lot of excess, who do not have metabolic issues, why are they unable to maintain a healthy level of fat on their body when every animal on the planet does so naturally when eating their natural diet? Again, I feel I have to stress that I am not being facetious, but looking for an explanation that makes sense.

You are saying again that people are “unable to maintain a healthy level” of fat on their bodies. What metric are you using to determine what is “healthy”? The body composition of a sperm whale? A jackal? A pachyderm? The latest cover of “Cosmopolitan” at the news stand? And is your basis pure aesthetic opinion?

You keep using that word “healthy”. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Look, I see what you’re saying. You’re basically saying “I just can’t take a guy who calls himself a health authority seriously when he gets up to a podium looking like a bag of donuts.” But that person may very well live to 100 even carrying that extra 50lb, particularly if by every measurable metric, they are free of metabolic disease. Would you call that person “healthy” then? Or would the visual perception of their body fat percentage get in the way?

Correlation does not equal causation. You are drawing a line between 50lb of body fat and the term “unhealthy” without specifying the gauge/metric for that determination - which leads me to believe you’re going on straight personal opinion of how that “looks”. And THAT’S TOTALLY OK, but just call it what it is.

[Pete_A]

This is an interesting post, but I’m a keep it simple stupid person. If the Keto philosophy says your body runs on its own fat stores, why isn’t excess fat seen as something that should go away? Though not scientific, it seems contradictory to justify carrying around extra pounds and think that’s okay, for the sake of what’s “healthy” according to specific variables.

[ssablich]

I count to a degree. I shoot for around 2200-2500 calories a day, mostly because my hunger switch is broken. I can’t “eat fat to satiety” without overeating. The biggest, most heard rule about this way of eating is the one rule I cannot follow if I want to maintain my weight and not put on more

Yes! This is the reason I count. I allow myself to go way over sometimes and somedays I am way under, which just tells me that I am doing a better job of listening to my body, I’m learning. But the idea of trusting myself fully with this missing hunger switch is bad news bears.

[DiMo]

If the Keto philosophy says your body runs on its own fat stores, why isn’t excess fat seen as something that should go away? Though not scientific, it seems contradictory to justify carrying around extra pounds and think that’s okay, for the sake of what’s “healthy” according to specific variables.

Who says these MHO people, which we are discussing theoretically, are eating a ketogenic diet? Or need to? Their n=1 includes tolerating a higher carbohydrate diet without any metabolically measureable impairment. Why should it matter that you judge their 50 lbs of extra body fat to be unacceptable? If they, on the other hand, decide that aside from their metabolic health they wish to alter their body composition [or want some of the other benefits of eating ketogenically (such as mental clarity or mood stabilization, stamina, or the metabolic flexibility that comes from easily switching from burning carbs to fat burning, etc)], that would be their choice. IMHO.

Edit: Also, carrying some extra fat without any measureable metabolic consequences might give them an evolutionary advantage in times of drought or famine (or during a zombie apocalypse!)

These pounds can also be advantageous if they chose to do extended fasts for potential life extending benefits or cancer prevention (read autophagy).

[Pete_A]

Why should it matter that you judge their 50 lbs of extra body fat to be unacceptable?

Doesn’t matter one bit Zombie apocalypse haha

[Squeeeyk]

The issue isn’t your confusion but it is the constant repetition of an obviously proven false hypothesis 6 times in this thread (sounds very troll like even if it was not your intention).

Perhaps constant repetition is a signal that one doesn’t understand a concept and the current explanation DOES NOT MAKE SENSE TO THEM. Rather than being a jerk and insulting them, as you are again doing with the continued troll implications, maybe a more constructive comment would have been to explain it differently.

You couldn’t even admit that MHO’s EXIST (that’s what a 10 second google search would have told you) let alone that there must be some metabolic pathway to create them that you don’t understand.

I believe each of my posts referenced my confusion of the topic. Oh that’s right, if you don’t “get it” with one post then you’re clearly trolling…never mind that you were asking me to just accept that MHO people existed because you said so without actually answering my question about how that was even possible.

You kept repeating your simplified understanding as gospel when several people answered you that it was way more complicated than that.

Two people does not equal several and stating “it is more complicated” without giving a freaking explanation is no different than what you’re accusing me of here.

It would have been far less troll-y to say… OK, MHO’s obviously exist, how does that work?

This is semantics. I sorry you weren’t able to see my confusion because I didn’t word it to your liking. If only everyone spoke and thought just like you!

I’m totally happy to have anyone read this thread and it’s many repeated statements, multiple helpful responses over most of a full day from several members… and draw their own conclusions about the willingness of the community here to respect and help someone who is confused…

Yeah the community at large has actually been fantastic. And what do you know, someone actually took the time to break it down for me after you were unable to. I believed I thanked them higher up. I even appreciate the links you provided. It’s just sad to me that this whole thing had to turn into an argument when you could’ve responded with less ire. I get it, we obviously operate under a differing value system, but you’re not going to help anyone nor have a receptive audience when you insult them.

Edit: fixed quote

[matt]

Let’s play nice please. The admins hate taking actions but the personal attacks will not be tolerated.

This is the only warning.

[Tmdlkwd]

I wanna Play😁

I will wager …taking @xyz for 1lb or share of bacon and 1 stick or share of butter please😂
Go!!!
Jk

W counting calories, I guess I can just play mental and then physical gymnastics now
From logging, knowing food macros, and visualizing portions.
My foods are basic or boring

For example:
Had a 2MAD for today
I range 900-1100 per meal ( Not needing to really count )
My body tells me when to stop
Can I eat more , sometimes
Am I still hungry, sometimes

For me, I prefer to be just in the moment
Take a breath, then go on w my day or evening
Any hint of bloating or discomfort coming forth. That’s the clue

Once, I get that “ I’m good now “
Food , no more lol

[FueledbyFat]

Hi, newbie here. I have been following strict Keto for almost 7 weeks now. I have lost 19 pounds. I have to admit that I am confused about CICO vs not watching CICO. The Reddit forums really seem dogmatic about CICO, whereas this forum seems to be much less so. I track everything in MFP to make sure I stay below 20 net carbs but sometimes I am over my calories and proteins and sometimes not. I need to develop a new relationship with my scale because I am too tied to it. I was up a pound this morning and got upset. I have been I/F 16:8 about 4-5 days a week for a couple of weeks, really trying to change things up like @meganjramos said in one of the obesity code podcasts. On my off days I eat more. Is there a definitive answer to CICO or is it just everyone’s different and some things work for some people and not others? Thanks!

[cwemmons]

I suggest you read or listen to(free on YouTube) Dr. Fung’s Obesity Code. He has the best layperson’s explanation I’ve heard, as to why CICO doesn’t work. Fascinating(and maddening) how we’ve all been lied to for so long!

[FueledbyFat]

Thank you! I have read it and it TOTALLY makes sense. All of the competing information is hard to sift through as someone who is just starting this journey. I guess if I just eat to satiety, and that’s it, I will probably be ok?

[IceNine]

Is there a definitive answer to CICO or is it just everyone’s different and some things work for some people and not others? Thanks!

There are no definitive answers to anything, i don’t think.

One person can follow a set amount of calories every day and never gain (or lose). Another person can do it and have vastly different results.

CICO isn’t “good or bad”. It just “is”. Calories are just a simple unit of measurement, and they are what they are.

I guess if I just eat to satiety, and that’s it, I will probably be ok?

Maybe you can, but I can’t without gaining. I end up eating too much.

[FueledbyFat]

Thank you! I appreciate the info.

[J_A-M]

Lots of people do thrive on non-keto vegan as much as many of us may hate to admit it.

I read a theory once that people who are nutritionally starved can do well on vegan for quite some time before they can’t anymore. Some of them doing so until death. I’m not sure if we have science for that but, it was interesting at least.

I ate a good variety of foods as a vegan but, every so often I would get an insatiable craving for meat. People smelled good, the cat looked like a hairy steak, raw hamburger looked appetizing. I would go to the store and get the least animal looking meat I could (deli ham) in a pound and devour it in the parking lot in the car like an animal. I’d feel great after but also entirely guilty.

It’s like a religion, even when it doesn’t make sense someone will stay with it. I think that goes for any dietary plan. However, keto is definitely one I see anecdotally doing the most for people. But, people become impatient with changes they can’t see when the internal changes are super important. They decide it’s not working just because they can’t see it and get angry. Anything takes time.

[J_A-M]

Adding to this calorie counting conversation. Two YouTubers, who I would call outwardly healthy, did an interesting 4000 calorie a day for 21 day keto challenge. Both of them struggled to the point of feeling physically ill to eat the percentage of fat they were aiming for (I think it was 75%). Neither of them gained much weight wise and one of them actually lost a tiny fraction of a body fat percentage. That’s why I truly believe in the eating fat to satiety bit. I can eat a lot of protein and carbs but, a few tablespoons of butter with the meal will get me full and if I try for more, will get me nausea for my trouble. I’ve been a closet binge eater before, I know how it feels. In the beginning when I was ravenous, I ate fat by the spoon full and couldn’t binge on it. That’s where I am in my n=1 of counting. If I won’t binge eat a stick of butter (like, the thought is too unappealing from a hunger stand point), then I don’t need that other food that I could potentially binge with either.

[akirby83]

The Reddit forums really seem dogmatic about CICO, whereas this forum seems to be much less so.

The weird thing is it seems like 4-5 years ago the Reddit keto group was largely the opposite. It is definitely populated with CICOphants these days. To me CICO is an attempt to control that which you can’t control. You have zero idea how much energy your body actually burns, and the calorie counts on food packages can legally be off by 20% in either direction. With that level of uncertainty CICO just seems like the opportunity to develop an eating disorder to me.

[FueledbyFat]

I gained 30 pounds eating vegan. Ugh. I was always hungry. It’s likely I ate the wrong things.

[OldDoug]

To me CICO is an attempt to control that which you can’t control. You have zero idea how much energy your body actually burns, and the calorie counts on food packages can legally be off by 20% in either direction. With that level of uncertainty CICO just seems like the opportunity to develop an eating disorder to me.

I think we usually try to simplify it too much. The “calories out” part includes excretion and storage, as well as burning. And with the varying insulin responses to fats. proteins and carbohydrates, the entire situation is more mutable than what many want.

[J_A-M]

Oh yeah, I gained a good amount of weight as a vegan and I was starving. Sometimes my groceries for the week wouldn’t last a day. Lots of beans, brown rice, tons of vegetables. I mean, literal tons over my time as a vegan. I still can’t look at kale directly.