Counting calories

(Karen) #21

Wish MFP would allow you to choose to display net carbs.

K

(Barbara ) #22

Thanks Liz; good for your Mom. I have been very strict with this Keto plan
and I really feel satisfied and so I don’t graze. I just don’t understand
when I see all these people talking about losing weight and I am getting
nowhere! I know when you age metabolism slows. Just wish my weight would
drop and not my body parts!

(Steve) #23

Yeah - that’s why my list of “my foods” is pretty long. Often there’s duplicates where other Keto-ers have altered the carb g’s to net in their database…just time consuming to find them.

(Olivia) #24

You are confusing basal metabolic rate (BMR) and total daily energy expenditure (TDEE). The first number is what your body burns at total rest. TDEE includes standing up, walking, speaking and other none exercise activities. If you’re lean TDEE moves towards BMR since it requires less energy to carry your body for example.

(What The Fast?!) #25

@Capnbob I have been thinking a lot about this… Once you are fat adapted, I don’t understand why restricting calories would harm your metabolism. If your insulin is low and you’re not taking in enough energy/fat, then wouldn’t you be able to access your stored fat to make up the difference? The Dudes always say - restrict carbs, moderate protein, and fat makes up the difference (whether that’s fat on your plate or fat from the donut you ate ten years ago). So…if you aren’t losing weight, wouldn’t it make sense to restrict fat on your plate in order to access your own fat stores?

I’ve seen other conversations on this, but no definitive answer. I would love for people to chime in on this. As you know, I haven’t been able to lose weight with keto (after an entire year), so it would seem the next logical step is to restrict fat calories (thus lowering overall calorie intake) so that my body accesses those 10-year-old donuts…no?

(Diane) #26

I’m not sure it’s accurate to equate a “fat adapted” status with complete metabolic health. I think I’m now finally fat adapted (it happened somewhere around 5-6 months into eating ketogenically for me); however, I would consider that I’m still metabolically deranged (I’m still insulin resistant and have chronic fatigue syndrome).

My understanding is that, whether you’re fat adapted or not, your body is smart. It will adjust to the calories you are taking in. If you are taking in fewer calories by calorie restriction, it will “budget” accordingly and your BMR will be adjusted down. If you calorie restrict, your body prioritizes your needs and lots of things will fall by the wayside. Things like bone density, joint repair, hormone regulation, hair, nail, and skin growth and health, organ repair, mental acuity, etc, etc. I think this is especially true if you don’t get enough healthy fats during those calorie restricted periods.

I have found better success by mixing things up (as suggested by Megan Ramos of IDM and as per Carl’s experiment described in the 2KD’s podcast). If I feast (keeping carbs under 20 grams, hit my protein grams, and eat fat whenever I’m still hungry beyond that), I seem to be giving my body the materials it needs to heal all the damage done over the years I wasn’t feeding it enough. Then, because I’m fat adapted, I can easily add in extended fasts periodically. As per Jason Fung, this doesn’t have the same effect on my BMR as calorie restriction. And I hopefully get the added benefits of autophagy and increased human growth hormone production to aid in repairing my deranged metabolism and damaged body. So,when I end my fasts, I go back to feasting, to keep my body guessing and so it doesn’t get used to any one strategy and decrease my BMR.

(Karen) #27

Are you steadily losing?

K

(charlie3) #29

To burn more calories than you take in and keep that up for weeks or months there needs to be a calorie deficit. The singular advantage of being fat adapted is the hunger signals are easier to finesse or ignore. I’m aware of two kinds of hunger signals. In keto mode my stomach says, hey, I’m bored, giive me something to do. That’s not so hard to ignore. I’ve got weeks worth of nutrients onboard. When I was running on glucose the hunger signal came from my brain, HEY, FEED ME or I’ll make you dizzy and feel bad. Most of us give in to that.

Everything goes easier for me if I skip breakfast, have some low level hunger until mid day or mid afternoon when I’ll have a nutrient dense “snack” that gets me to dinner which is a huge salad fortifiied with enough, cheese, oil, meat, etc. to supply fat and protien and garrantee I feel full and sleep well. I don’t have a weight problem per se. I want to be lean and hang onto lean body mass so my calorie deficit is only a few hundred per day. To keep that small difference consistantly I need to be tracking energy out and energy in and so far it seems to be working nicely.

List item

(Jeannie Oliver) #30

You are right, of course. Thank you for the correction.

(Chris W) #31

I have been playing with this the last few weeks, I have reached a point were I was not losing fat and decided to start fasting extended. One of the things I tried without real knowledge of it was cutting way back for a few days eating but below macros, and then fasting. It was my second EF I could only go 36 hours, unlike my first which was in excess of 48 and I could have kept going but I had food I needed to eat that had been prepared(smoked ribs). On my third fast I had listened to both the megan ramos and the metabolic show I think. I dunno I listened to about 20 in as many hours last weekend. At any rate this was my third extended fast, I started on Tuesday ran through last night and I really amped up my intake the days preceding no restrictions way over. I was warm, had extra energy the whole nine yards. I went to 80 hours and could have gone more but I was showing signs of slow metabolism(cold, getting more tired despite salt, etc.) I ate and within 2 hours I was right back to warm and starting to ramp up the metabolism again. Loss wise it was the most successful, and I would say I felt the best in the long run considering I had not changed my habits of exercise and work during it unlike #2 which had no workout.

So in my N=1 world restricting calories before a fast resulted in both nearly zero loss, and really felt bad at the end. I would say I started off slow and tapered down quickly. Success to me means I hit my goals, which was either a movement on the scale, on tape measure, or on the BF meter and I feel good.

My first fast was in the macros and I just decided hey I am going to fast since i have not eaten since yesterday, it was the second most successful and resulted in a scale movement and BF movement which had been nil. It had a normal workout routine for 1 of the days

My second was the failure, I felt bad at the end I was cold mostly through it and I did not work out at all, I also had to sit through a boring class at work as well. Very minor movement on the scale but it rescinded after 2 days and the BF went up slightly. (this was the restricted calorie I am not losing weight for about a week before one).

My third EF was the most successful were I had a raging fire going inside, and I just stopped putting the logs on it. I felt the best at the end, and I had the biggest movement although it was in BF I actually gained overall but BF went down and so did my waist. But I was really working out during (3 of the 3)it and I am sure I added muscle based on the numbers.

I have been watching your story and I am interested in knowing more about it and why you are a left turn. I am about 6 months in and have been fat adapted for about 4 months now.

(Jeannie Oliver) #32

Hmmm, not necessarily. I realize that by some standards I’m a newbie here, but I have been successfully counting calories AND carbs AND protein AND fat for 12 weeks. I was 40 - 45 pounds overweight at the beginning, and I’ve lost 25 pounds. So no, I don’t think I’m going to burn out and give up.

That said, I credit my success at losing at a rate that is good for me to the ketogenic diet that I eat between my hours of IF–not to any particular feats of will power. I’m absolutely not hungry after my eating window is closed. (I’m not saying I don’t crave certain foods, but I recognize the difference between cravings and hunger.)

I recognize that counting calories and logging meals into an app is not for everyone. Some of my friends in RL can’t stand the idea. I get that. I have an aversion to having someone measure my girth or pinching up my fat for those disgusting calipers. And I weigh myself no more than once a month.

I started counting calories because I wanted to track carbs in My Fitness Pal, and of course the calorie counts are right up front and impossible to ignore. I have found it’s a good way to check myself and learn what it feels like when I’m eating the right amount of the right foods for my health. Some days, I eat less, some days more, and I don’t worry about it. If I’m TRULY hungry, I eat fat; if I’m not hungry, I don’t eat. To me, that’s the essence of Dr. Fung’s message.

(Karen) #33

I am not exactly restricting, just trying to not eat more than my couch potato lifestyle tolerates.

K

(Rob) #34

In general, that sounds right but it is probably mediated by 2 things:

  1. amount of body fat you have available and by . If each pound of fat can generate 30kcal a day, you need quite a lot of fat to make up for exogenous calorie restriction.
  2. the state of your metabolic processes (derangement). How much of each hormone you secrete and the state of the organs that secrete them vs. specific amounts of inputs AND the resistance or not of each organ to other hormones sounds like it should be important. Insulin may be the master but the thyroid and other hormones are also important.

As to fat restriction and its impact on metabolism then there are the extreme reverse diets where fat restriction to <10% (and commensurate 85% carb diet) seems to have very similar effects to the keto and both are very restrictive of their target macro. But still, fat seems to be a powerful mediator to the body. This does NOT seem to be calorie dependent but macro driven.

So the question seems to be back to the one you asked. Does calorie restriction work if you cut the fat calories. There are several scenarios to me:

  1. If you replace them with carbs, in general it isn’t supposed to work since you lose ketosis and hence fat adaptation but we are all different. Worth trying?
  2. If you just reduce fat calories and don’t replace them, you are back to calorie restriction with fat adaptation. If you can do this without feeling hungry, then it should be fine. If you are hungry, you are probably causing some starvation response.
  3. If you replace fat with lean protein to avoid hunger, who knows? Works for some.

You don’t have that much fat to utilize but in knowing that, you could tailor a ketogenic plan with fat reduction and see what happens e.g. 30lbs = ~900 kcal. It shouldn’t be dangerous.

I went through a brief (2 weeks?) phase of satiety at 1200 kcal and lost weight but it didn’t stick around for long. My TDEE must be around 2000kcal.

(Diane) #35

Thanks for a great, detailed, specific explanation!

(Siobhan) #36

Just chiming in… I’ve seen both sides. One side where restricting is the only way they can lose weight, others where it results in weight gain.
If you are not feeling good and are still hungry imo thats a sign you should eat. There is good evidence that intentionally restricting severely can long term damage metabolism.

Personally I restricted for maybe three days at the beginning then stopped. It made my life more complicated, so I just ate to satiety and kept carbs low.
A year and a half later and I’ve lost >70 lbs.
Sometimes I do track food, especially nowadays, but that’s because I do experiments and get blood draws. I take pictures and then log at the end of the day so what I eat isn’t influenced by my perception of it. No restriction.

If restricting isn’t working for you, try eating to satiety and see how that works. Still keep carbs <20g and then the rest to satiety.
Above all, know that the adaption phase can take a while so even if everything is being done right you may not lose right away. Take some baseline measurements - waist, thigh, hip, arm, weight, bloodwork if you can. Then just focus on how you feel, how your clothes fit, how your energy level is doing, etc
And take care of yourself.

(Rob) #37

You just can. About 30% of obese people are metabolically healthy (per Ivor Cummins) so while it IS typically indicative of metabolic derangement but NOT necessarily. I assume there are other pathways to obesity (excess calories while having greater genetic insulin sensitivity) that don’t involve insulin resistance.

(Vivienne Clampitt) #38

Genes?

(Pete A) #39

I track everything, firstly to ensure I’m below 20 carbs, secondly to monitor the fat intake. The calories then seem to fall within a manageable range, which for me is between my BMR and TDEE (closer to the BMR as the exercise varies and the tracking is a guide and never exact).

For me running some deficit happens automatically and I adjust calories according to scale weight (am I losing, maintaining, gaining?) and longer trend (looking at average for two weeks, a month etc).

Of note I’m always in ketosis (based on strips, how I feel, steady loss).

(Karl) #40

I count to a degree. I shoot for around 2200-2500 calories a day, mostly because my hunger switch is broken. I can’t “eat fat to satiety” without overeating. The biggest, most heard rule about this way of eating is the one rule I cannot follow if I want to maintain my weight and not put on more.

When I was in the process of losing, I ate around 1800 a day. I’m guessing, perhaps wrongly, that a lot of people who are eating keto and aren’t losing weight are simply eating too much. I think (and I am totally guessing here) they do this partly out of fear that they might damage their metabolism (thank “The Biggest Loser” study for that, probably), and partly because they are being told by the masses that counting calories is BAD and that you might need to eat more to lose weight - and that you’re breaking your metabolism otherwise.

I give the human body more credit than that. And I could of course be wrong about everything. But counting calories works fine for me in general, and I use it as a tool in my arsenal.

1200 calories a day seems tiny, so my questions are “Where is that recommendation coming from, and is it valid?” It sounds like you’re genuinely not eating enough, which would make me miserable.

(Pete A) #41

Yes, this.