Could too much meat throw you out of ketosis?


(Bill) #5

Unlikely


(Bill) #6

So it’s far more likely that the carbs you consume on your “dirty keto” diet will kick you out of ketosis long before protein would (if protein would at all which I doubt).


(Veronica) #7

Hi, thanks for your reply. I am not concerned as such, just merely curious as to what may or may not throw me out of ketosis, and I like to read other peoples’ experiences of ketoing, and so I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts. I believe with protein we are all different, and most of us probably eat too little, before keto I know my protein consumption was meagre at best, so obviously that’s very different now. This morning I had a plate of prawns, a boiled egg and several rashers of bacon for breakfast. The fatty bacon was by far the best. I am noticing though I like to add a few carbs that I’m not as keen on them as I used to, but, and forgive me if this sounds foolish, I want to keep my ability to digest them. It is a concern that if I went carnivore, then after a while, my body would do less well with nuts, seeds, fruits and vegetables, and for the life of me I can’t see a sustainable diet for me without variety. It’s a word that my body whispers continuously, but perhaps this will change in time. As to consistency, well, we’re only human. I like the idea of staying in fat-adaptation regardless of a few minor slip ups. Time will tell I suppose.


(Veronica) #8

Well I do still keep it under 20 grams everyday and I count the total carbohydrate, not the net carbs. I don’t actually know if what I do is what is referred to as dirty keto, but compared to the strictest keto perhaps it is. I’m at the moment 52kg (159cm) and have lost over the last month 4 kilos. So I certainly am finding it easy to lose weight on this WOE, though that wasn’t my actual goal, as I am attempting to treat my lipoedema. What does motivate me is the clear reduction I’ve experienced in lipoedema pain, inflammation and swelling. And keto seems to have done entirely away with my water retention. Also, I am enjoying the food a lot more, so that’s a plus :slight_smile:


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #9

You will never lose your ability to digest carbohydrates. Glucose metabolism is a skill that every living cell possesses, and it can occur anywhere inside a cell.

By contrast, it is possible, from eating a great deal of carbohydrate and little fat over a long period, to deactivate much of our cells’ ability to metabolise fatty acids and damage the rest, which is why it is necessary to endure a period of fat-adaptation at the beginning of a ketogenic diet.

The only change that could possibly be considered a negative on a ketogenic diet is that after some time in ketosis, the liver recycles its store of insulin, which means that the first-phase response to a sudden high load of glucose will be a bit delayed. This is perfectly normal, and the liver returns to storing a supply of insulin for the first-phase response almost immediately after that. (Certainly within 24 hours, according to Prof. Bikman.) But the ability to metabolise glucose never becomes compromised, the way the ability to metabolise fatty acids can be.


(Michael) #10

You will continue to get conflicting information since those who espouse that GNG is demand driven have not read or understood the originator of that comment. Try reading this thread GNG, protein and blood glucose re-visited whereby the expert who invented that phrase notes that it does not imply gng is driven by glucose as the control.

Separately to answer your question, I am a carnivore and have (by blood test measurements) been out of ketosis when eating too much protein. Having said all this, I actually think it is important to occasionally spike insulin , and as such do not think you should worry about eating too much protein. But is it possible? 100% yes it is.


(Bill) #11

Interested… what do you consider too much protein?

Did you register zero ketones?


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #12

I’d say it would be the point where we start to smell of ammonia, since that means the uric acid cycle is being overloaded and ammonia toxicity is starting to become a problem.

It’s hard to eat that much protein, however. In one famous overfeeding study, a participant broke down in tears at having to eat yet another pork chop.


#13

Gluconeogenesis may be demand driven. But I understood that ‘over eating’ meat protein, I think in a combined low-fat way, can mimic fasting. The Protein Sparing Fasting Mimicking WoE, or Protein Sparing Modified Fast (PSMF). And that situation can lead to a hormonal stress response. The subsequent blood glucose rise follows adrenaline and cortisol release. Which then brings up insulin and down regulates ketogenesis. So, there potentially is a way to not be ketogenic on a very low carb diet. If you are stressed and/or nutritionally stress your body.


(Robin) #14

I break down in tears when I run out of pork chops.


(Michael) #15

I measured Lo when my device can measure 0.1, meaning that the measurement rounded down to zero. So for all purposes, yes it measured zero. I took the measurement within a few minutes after my last meal. My total for the day was 333g protein, 296 g fat and 11 g carbs. I weigh under 60 kg, so that is well over 5 g/kg bodyweight, and is a standard eating day if I fast the previous day.

I consider too much to be enough to bring out of ketosis for this thread. In general, too much is when I feel ill from protein, which depends on protein over the week instead of just one day.


#16

Agreed, but while PSMF’s are kinda crash diet-y, you’re definitely not over eating either. You typically cap your cals at around 800 or so, eat near no carbs or fat at all and allowed green veggies, at least if you’re doing the PSMF the way that they were made popular by Lyle McDonald. Definitely a stress to a point, but I don’t think any more than any other time you’re not eating a ton. PSMFs are the only types of fasts I’ll do now when I do decide that I need one as they’re muscle sparing. Lost WAY too much muscle (and metabolism) with “normal” fasting. Really not supposed to do them for more than a few days though. I can say PSMFs will pull fat off me faster than traditional fasting ever did, and I still get to eat! Only downside for me and many is they make you incredibly hungry.


(Bill) #17

Wow that’s a lot… what did you eat?


(Michael) #18

on that day in particular I ate
1 oz beef liver, 6 oz buffalo heart, 28 oz beef ribeye, 4 oz salmon, 3 oz sardines, 2 eggs and 10 oz Jarlsberg lactose free cheese.


(Bill) #19

Wow hungry day eh?


(Michael) #20

I have been doing ADF, so I did not eat the day before or the day after, so yes, I am hungry on my eating days :slight_smile:


(Megan) #21

Hi Bill, briefly chiming in here. I eat carnivore and have registered zero ketones on my blood ketone meter quite a few times. I don’t test now but when I did I was almost always 0.2, usually testing in the morning but sometimes later on in the day many hours after a meal. I usually eat anywhere between 1 to 3 pounds of meat a day.


(Bill) #22

That’s nutritional ketosis though . If you are registering ketones you must be in a state of ketosis whatever Phinney and Volek may have mistakenly said in the past.


(Megan) #23

Yea, but the main point of my post was to say yes, I have registered zero ketones quite a few times from eating just meat, zero carbs.


(Christian Hirose Romeo Graham/廣瀬 グラハム クリスティン 路美男) #24

It can, depending on how much lean protein in one sitting and your body size, activity level, metabollic status, etc. But even if it does, it’s not really a thing of concern. You should start producing ketones a few hours later, depending on how much carbs you’ve eaten in the last meal and how fat adapted you are.