Coconut fat good or bad?

(B Creighton) #9

This is debatable, and I will debate it. Natural seed oils are usually healthy AND a good source of the essential fats. We have to have both Omega 3 and Omega 6 PUFAs - or we will eventually die. Our brains are largely comprised of Omega 3s… which I will admit are best obtained from animal sources, but can be obtained from Omega 3 ALA fat from plants, and for this reason this fat alone is technically considered the only essential fat. Plant and animal PUFA fats come with natural antioxidants because nature seeks to protect these easily oxidized fats from becoming oxidized with these antioxidants. So, I argue that getting these oils naturally from plants is healthy and safe. However, “seed oils” in the form bought from stores are far from natural, and have become oxidized even before you purchase them. I consider them a man-made fat. Cooking with them really is not a good idea. Virgin coconut oil is an exception because it is not refined and concentrated so still is full of polyphenols. It is also mostly saturated fat. It is also comprised of about 15% of MCT saturated fats, which I believe are quite desirable for several reasons, and can be considered essential for human babies. This idea that no good fats can come from plants is false. Unfortunately, the seed oil industry was able to successfully promote itself after WWII, and replaced the largely healthy coconut oil industry in the states. That said, I stay away from refined coconut oil, refined avocado oil, etc.

However, not even the refined seed oils are the worst fats. The absolute worst fats are hydrogenated fats - and these can be animal fats to a limited extent if overcooked.

(Bob M) #10

I don’t think there’s such a thing as “natural seed oils”. We can get oil from olives, but all we have to do it put them into a container. The oil comes out of them.

Find some soybeans. (I have some at home to make natto.) Let me know how you get the oil out of them. I could say the same for rapeseed or any of the other seeds. There’s no way to get oil out of them without a ton of processing.

(Geoffrey) #11

I don’t think it is debatable in the least. Seed oils are nothing more than machine oil. Not really fit for human health. As the old saying goes you can put lipstick on a pig but it’s still a pig.
Seed oils are one of most detrimental things to our health along with sugar. Even the grain, prior being heated to the point it becomes rancid and then has to be deodorized and bleached so it can be used, is bad enough. Seeds and seed oils are contributing factors in heart disease and cancer. No thanks, I’ll pass.
We have been eating animal fats as long as we’ve been breathing with no health issues as a result.
It wasn’t until the Industrial Revolution when seed oils came on the scene that we started seeing heart attacks and cancer rates becoming noticeable. When once the were unheard of they are now number one and two on the hit parade for death.
There is a reason why, when we cut out sugar, grains and seed oils from our diet, that our health immediately improves. Inflammation is the leading cause of most of our metabolic problems today and seed oils are a major contributor to that inflammation.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #12

I’m not sure there is actually such a thing as a “natural” seed oil.

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#14

To nitpick that, it’s partially-hydrogenated (trans) fats that are an issue. Fully hydrogenated is fine.

(Mark Rhodes) #15

We have had this conversation a few times. Back in 2023 Paul Mason stated his opinion that saturated coconut fat should not get a free pass as it is plant based.

(B Creighton) #16

Well there is, but we just don’t think of it that way. Natural seed oils are not concentrated and refined. What I mean by that term is that they are found in their natural form inside the food with the natural antioxidants nature has there to prevent these easily oxidized fats from becoming oxidized. In plants this is typically natural vitamin E, in seafood it is often astaxanthin, etc. When man removes these fats, concentrates them, and refines them, they have the potential to become oxidized. I don’t need to tell you that. And then the natural ratio we need gets all screwed up too. These are essential fats, but our bodies like them in fairly equal ratios, and the ratios are way out of wack in the SAD, which also presents problems. Anywhoooo, natural seed oils good… refined seed oils bad. To say all seed oils are bad is just not accurate. That is what I mean. In fact the natural ones represent essential fats our bodies have to have one way or another. That does not mean we cannot get them from animals, because we can…that does not change the fact that they are essential fats, and good in their natural, unrefined form.

(B Creighton) #17

Well, this particular notion should be dispelled. A Polynesian culture with one of the highest saturated fat consumptions in the world, was perfectly healthy and free of CAD until the SAD and soda came along. Now it is one of the most obese, ridden with diabetes and yes, heart disease. They obviously need to go back to their high saturated fat, coconut based diet. Man has been eating plenty of coconut for millenia… and doing quite well. It has been railed against exactly because it is so high in saturated fat, when I think that is what makes it so safe for cooking. It is also an excellent source of MCTs, perhaps the best in the plant kingdom. So, if you want to use MCTs, guess where you are getting them from?

(Mark Rhodes) #18

I think Paul being a carnivore was making quite a different point, he didn’t say it was unhealthy, just that a free pass might not be the best thing (if carniovre). He also makes sure to clarify it as his opinion not based on any science. As to the health qualities you suggest the Polynesian people have, yep I will agree. But I will also assert they also have higher carb counts than others. Why? They live closer to areas that have fruits and the like year round, which might have alterred their metabolism enough over the millenium. That’s hard to say and just my opinion.

I firmly beleive that had we been allowed to evolve to a dual fuel system, we would not have anywhere near the level of diabetes we do. What happened is we became grain consumers much quicker than evolution could adapt to coupled with frequnt feedings and eventually ultra processed food stuffs. I think the idea of BLUE ZONES demonstrates this well enough.

(B Creighton) #19

We do have a dual fuel system. That is plain. Our bodies make enzymes specifically for the digestion of carbs, and other plant nutrients. The reason we have diabetes like we do is because our bodies are not designed to take in refined, processed carbs and sugars not found in nature. I agree that the overconsumption of grains can also be a problem. We are not designed to live on grains anymore than the cows we feed them to are. We give cattle the same metabolic disease we give ourselves, but excuse it because we like the more tender, marbled meat… that is USDA “grade A.” In my opinion it should be grade B at best. People in the Blue zones eat a good amount of carbs and animal foods. I believe that is because that is what is healthiest. We are clearly designed for it. But 60%+ of calories from grains? No, we are not designed for that. I agree.

(Mark Rhodes) #20

We do not have a true dual system. If it was a true dual system it wouldn’t fail for any reason. Most people think carbs are the first thing handled by the body, it is not- alcohol is. A known toxin is handled first. I supppose the body adapted to being able to ingest certain toxins like alcohol and…well is it possible that carbs are not as much a fuel source as it is a toxin? Or it is a amore explosive fuel source and more like a toxin than fuel? What makes a toxin? dose, not substance.

An electric / gas car is true dual system. An engine that uses nitrous injection can damage the engine. In this example nitrous injection is the same as glucose. BAM energy. Speed and oops, damage if used to long or too explosively ( there goes my oil rings/ pancreas)

I would say people around the equator are evolved for it certainly. I am not sure if you gave a 1700 period artic person that level of carbohydrates that the Blue Zone gets, if the artic person could it it without without repercussions.

(B Creighton) #21

We are probably the closest to a true dual fuel system on the planet then… Which is probably the reason we have survived when we are relatively fragile and helpless compared to most mammals. I don’t think there is another animal on the planet which eats as many different foods as does man. We were totally dual fueled in nature. We just changed nature, and then changed it some more with the industrial revolution. In other words we are dual fueled if you omit man-made foods. That simply cannot be denied. And I believe the blue zones prove that… they eat both plant and animal foods essentially without exception.

(Harriet) #22

Check out the book The Big Fat Surprise by Nina Teicholz. I think you will find the information well researched and enlightening.

Seed oils, other than the ones that can be easily and naturally extracted, like avocado oil or coconut oil, are extremely recent introductions to the human diet. Heating them, like for frying, creates some nasty chemical reactions and turns them into something like plastic.

That’s just one of the facts in this book. It’s worth reading.

#23

Like everything there is a duality. Too much may not be good and too little also may not be good. There is a balance. Do you have a family history of ACVD, obesity or smoking?

(Geoffrey) #24

Interesting, I thought I’d read somewhere that the Blue Zone study was debunked a long time ago as cherry picked pseudo science.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #25

Forgive me, but I am not going to be eating cotton seeds, soybeans, rape seeds, or safflower seeds anytime soon. Maize kernels, peanuts, and sunflower seeds, sure–if I weren’t carnivore, and if it weren’t so hard to eat enough of those items to get an appreciable amount of oil. But I much prefer lard, tallow, butter, and bacon grease, in any case, so . . . .

While it is true that the body needs small amounts of certain specific ω-3 and ω-6 fatty acids, many of the polyunsaturated fatty acids in seed oils are evolutionarily new to the human body and cause problems when the body tries to assimilate them. They tend to interfere with the tight junctions between intestinal lining cells, for example. Then there is the issue that ω-6 fatty acids cause systemic inflation when consumed in quantity. As Stephen Phinney observes, the main problem with the standard Western diet is not to get enough ω-6 fats, it is to avoid getting too much.

For me, the ω-3’s and ω-6’s in the meat fats I cook with and that are contained in my meat are quite adequate for health. Your mileage (kilometrage?) is sure to vary.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #26

Actually, they only make enzymes for digesting certain carbohydrates. Cellulose and the other indigestible carbs, also known as fibre, are indigestible precisely because we lack cellulase and the other necessary enzymes.

But the problem with a high-glucose diet is that (1) that glucose goes straight into the blood stream, where it is very dangerous (quit apart from glycative damage, hyperglycaemia can kill, if it is not dealt with); (2) the amount of insulin required to deal with that flood of glucose also causes damage; (3) as cells react to the flood of insulin by down-regulating their insulin receptors in self-defence, the pancreas must pump out ever-increasing amounts of insulin, and hyperinsulinaemia is itself damaging; and (4) too much glucose damages mitochondria in cells throughout the body, which causes all sorts of bad effects, from neurological and mental-health problems, to diabetes, PCOS, impotence, many forms of cancer, and so forth. Not to mention the damage fructose does, by itself being a mitochondrial toxin.

Given that we evolved by eating meat, and given that the skeletons of agricultural societies are noticeably shorter and show more signs of various chronic diseases than do the skeletons of hunter-gatherer societies, it is pretty clear that excessive carbohydrate consumption is not optimal for human health.

Obviously, our bodies can metabolise glucose; this is an evolutionarily ancient trait. But modern human beings evolved from eating meat, first as scavengers, later as hunters, and any carb intake was minimal and seasonal. The ability to metabolise fatty acids and ketones is an ability conferred by the bacterium we now call the mitochondrion, which entered into symbiosis with an ancient unicellular ancestor. Any diet that damages our mitochondria, therefore, is going to have negative health consequences.

#27

It’s easy to get a lot of fat from them if the one in question likes them. But we often only need a little (or not at all) beyond what we get from our protein sources… Many aren’t like this, not even on keto, sure… I definitely am. There is a reason my goal is minimal or preferably no added fat (but no is a tad too limiting for me. easy to do but I would miss things. like butter but not only that). If I want fat, I eat fattier meat and more dairy, way better than eating seeds though I do love my seeds too. Even my bread for my high-carber has a lot of sesame seeds but I can use it as the primarily flour too when baking. (I haven’t done it since ages but I could.)

On this forum you are so not alone with preferring animal fat :smiley: It’s tasty, after all though it depends on the fat and the person. I strongly dislike tallow and wouldn’t eat it without the meat.
But I dislike sunflower seeds too. Peanuts? I could eat more than what my body likes (that’s not much. peanut is my only not very carby edible item my body has problems with according to my knowledge) and that wouldn’t be good. My SO had peanut meals with ~120 g fat, it’s only 60 now as he needs to be careful to keep his figure and he has 3 meals.

Some people seem to handle high-carb (with the right rules, at least) pretty well but for some, it’s glaringly obvious it’s not ideal even for short term. I showed my body low-carb and then keto and carnivore and it liked it VERY much and usually immediately (keto felt bad first and okay but just like low-carb later so not there but in the other two cases? it was ELATED. it’s never my body that wants to go off).

So in some cases, we needn’t to wonder about ourselves, at least as it’s pretty clear even without waiting for some decades. Though not everyone agrees with me on this (that I won’t get sick later if I just do what my body likes and what seems okay for a human from a more scientific viewpoint as well for a while).

(Bob M) #28

And I’ve never understood why you can’t get what you need solely from meat, which has them in it. You don’t need to drink oil.

(B Creighton) #29

I never said or recommended to get all your omega 3s and 6s from plants. In fact I expressly mentioned that it is easier to get the omega 3s we need from animal foods, and in fact I recommend that. But to claim that all plant fats are bad, is simply not correct. Out of your list above, I regularly enjoy peanuts and sunflower seeds. I do eat some organic maize/corn occasionally. I believe the fats I get from them are perfectly healthy. If you don’t want to eat those foods, and want to get your omega 6s and 3s from animals, that is fine with me, but they are essential fats we need.

Interesting. Would you elucidate your comments for me? What PUFAs are you talking about specifically? I’ve never heard of PUFAs damaging the gut lining.