@Karen18 what a great birthday meal, happy birthday!
Today I made a leg of lamb roast. Had about half of it for breakfast. Then an omelette for lunch and dinner with a bowl of goat milk yogurt for dessert.
Carnivores March into March :)
Ketodaisy
(Daisy)
#61
robintemplin
(Robin)
#62
Glad you reported in. Isn’t it interesting how we find our choices and habits changing, not from our preferences, but from the body showing us the way.
I ate more cheese today than norm. I’d rarely eat it and in moderation. A few hours after eating, my joints aches, I was tired and I had a headache.
Well, alrighty then.
Azi
(Linda )
#63
Shanita bring up a good discussion the times we eat either out of boredom or snack during our off meal times how do you all choose to counter it??.. maybe you don’t have that issue
For me it happened again tonight it usually starts with pork rinds then I’ll grab a nut or something else I don’t usually bother with …and because I don’t eat those items normally I can limit those to 3 or 4 but I cant do that with pork rinds… I dont know why…i can go months with out touching any but then for some reason I go eat one or two then the next day I’ll end up snacking on them… sowhen that sarted
Tonight I tried to counter the snacking by stopping when It when I realized I kept eating a few more and then coating some fish in them and eating a extra meal it seemed to work but it made for a three meal day…
Fangs
#64
we are speaking directly about starting the carnivore plan and newer people on plan having a bout with the D. That is all we are chatting here. Nothing else. Almost all new carnivores have a small issue with D when starting. That was the entire context of that chat. New carnivores on this plan with an adaption issue regarding some D.
Since we are a zc thread, I keep forgetting you are not all in carnivore, lol…your answers ring wrong to me sometimes when I put it in carnivore context…but yea, eat what ya want when you want. Carnivores won’t do that, we just eat the meats and done deal on our plan of course. I forget you bounce in and out at will.
See, FrankoBear just posted a wonderful change in his eating. He wants less, his body is asking for it that way ONLY cause he is on plan and holding this plan. His body after time is now changing and it is all because he held the carnivore plan. Key to everything I type S is that I am always and forever referring it against the zc eating lifestyle. When I chat, I am not chatting about eating anything else and when I chat how things, ‘should go down’ as one stays on this zc plan, I am chatting only carnivore changes and carnivore benefits as experienced by darn near every carnivore in their journey. I am not chatting about anything else but carnivore experiences and benefits and am not chatting about anyone eating anything else but zc style.
@Karen18
Those pics were definitely a drool factor for me. that steak and that pork with that glistening fat on top and ALL of it just made me get so darn wanting every bit of it! Your experience had to be a carnivore memory to the ultimate for you guys, and your DD eating so well with you. I sure appreciate your taking the time to snap pics of that fun time out K, I enjoyed seeing it all. We don’t have any Brazilians around me, being very rural my drive would be around 3 hrs to find one I think? …but ya know, when out and about traveling I am going to make it a point to try to find one near that location in the future, seeing that, I gotta get to one of them restaurants also!! Just a WOW on that meal!!
you won’t under eat. even if you do for a few days, at some point your body will ramp back up and tell you literally it wants more. when that happens it is imperative to eat very well.
FB you are walking thru big true carnivore changes! This is exactly as it goes down for darn near every single carnivore who holds plan tightly and walks this journey full in!
One clue to this change in appetite is your body is becoming nutritionally balanced and your healing is probably in a more stable place physically, now your body will start to ask for less food. Key being when it asks for more, give it more, don’t keep some type of ‘I need to not eat so much today’ mentality…always always follow that eating signal thru these changes. You will flip around a bit but that all is OK. You are heading toward that next step of becoming ‘very well set’ into a normal eating pattern that will go long term and will be ‘you’, what ‘suits you’ and then you are almost in that cruise control type situation.
You are doing extremely carnivore great on this lifestyle!
ahhh, work and stress and driving…omg driving is a stress factor for sure when ya don’t wanna be doing it!
Ahhh, don’t catch covid, I hope you can come thru the crazy without getting anyting at all 
-----------and guys, all the food pics are wonderful, like Naghite said licking the pictures might now become an option for me!!!
today is a super simple eating day. steak and shrimp first big meal. second meal will be burgers if I want them later.
frozen steak to thaw, shrimp to boil later and all good!
Yum to come!
Karen18
(Karen)
#65
Lamb looks amazing I love leg of lamb but strangely enough last night after eating the beef first I realised beef is my favourite and surprising to me, the loin pork came in second best. Not that there was anything wrong with all the meats they were all very tender and cooked exactly to my taste! I even preferred the rump to the sirloin which surprised me… I guess because I don’t usually eat all the different types of meat on one plate I wouldn’t really be able to tell which I like best.
It wasn’t my birthday lol I was just agreeing that it would be a good choice and my daughter had also mentioned it when we were walking out of the restaurant. I am a June baby.
@Shinita I have seen lots of Chinese restaurants that do all you can eat menus only been to one, many many years ago. There used to be a Brazilian restaurant in Nottingham but it closed down during lockdown. No idea if it did the all you can eat but I think my daughter said it did. Good job I didn’t know that when it was still open!!! 
Fangs
#66
we snacky out on carnivore cause we are hungry. simple as that.
key to stopping that snack attack is if you get that feeling you ‘want something, but not sure what or how much?’ as we all know…cook meat. Simple as that in full truth. Cause your body is saying it needs food, how much, who knows and this is when a few burgers or ribs in the fridge should be the first go to foods. Fry up a steak, you eat only a few bites then you got that best bang for your buck on nutrition into your body vs. eating snacky type junk that won’t give you that good nutrition.
My snacky was some cheese, beef sticks, salami, can of tuna, sardines and more and I would never ‘be satisfied’ on that stuff…I kept eating more ya know cause it never gave me what I needed…another darn meal to eat in my day.
going up to 3 meals every now and then in a day is never a bad thing on zc.
eat all ya need, when you truly need it. we really know when we need it 
when I dropped the snacky foods and went directly toward meat if ‘hungry in any way’ then I fixed that stupid snacky food issue. I never snack now. I know if hungry, yes I go and make me some darn good meat!
that is our reliance truly. eat all ya need when you need it. don’t skimp or control. thru all that experience we change absolutely into new people where we never snack or need it, we never feel deprived nutritionally ya know.
giving up snacking was hard in a way but not really hard.
watching tv late at night was my ‘wanna snack time’ and for me if I could not be ok thru it feeling no hunger at all thru my daily food, if it hit into wanting something, I had a period of time doing just that, I cooked alot of chicken wings and made sure they were in the fridge. Cold wings or reheated, I ate tons of those during my snacky time
keep that focus on meat. keep the focus off less than stellar crap to ‘maybe satiate’ us ya know which all of us do fall into that trap. I rarely do my go to cheese chunk, or my salami now, or my beef sticks. That all changed once I took those off the list as some type of ‘get thru it’ snacky time to just eat bigger meats you love, like a giant mess of wings, or a lb. of bacon…omg I ate a lb. of bacon so many nights HAHA
just a chat on what it took for me to effect changes but holding the plan to its biggest truths, eat the meats! the big old fresh natural meats and we do best. I had to find that out also.
Ketodaisy
(Daisy)
#67
This is ABSOLUTELY something I struggle with and the reason I eat so much. Do I need the amount of food I eat? I know I don’t. Do I need to eat at the times I eat? I know I don’t. Am I truly hungry before I eat? Very rarely. Something is still very broken in my brain from the years of trauma and eating disorders and I haven’t learned how to fix it yet. Some day it will be something I actively tackle. I’m not there yet, but someday. I have awareness and that’s a good start, but I just don’t have the desire to fix it yet. Last years experiment still are too fresh with negative effects and emotions. The plan right now still has to be “eat”. When I really feel in a solid place I can try to make some adjustments. The disordered brain is different than the normal brain. We have to tread lightly, even on carnivore, to avoid spirals. After 6 years, I no longer feel like I’m a sugar addict, I don’t feel restricted by that label anymore. Now I choose not to eat sugar because it’s poison. If, for some reason, I do eat a taste of sugar (example: 2021 Harry Potter World and I had a few bites of butterbeer ice cream), it no longer sends me down a sugar spiral ending in a gutter covered in candy wrappers. But that’s been a 6 year battle to get there. So I know I can get there with the boredom/habit eating. I’m just not ready. 
Shinita
#68
Alvaro cooked a wonderful meal on open fire. I still think the over 2kg cauliflower is just there in it, not needed.
But I made pork chuck roast for me so I focus on it from now on:
The colors are off, the rendered out fat below aren’t nearly that dark and burned IRL. Still edible. I like and need that stuff for the leaner bites.
1200g so it will be fine for 3 days I suppose. As I eat other things as well.
Oh snacking… I better forget about that. I had some times full with sweets, I blame my low-meat times, that rarely ends well. And I have long term sweets and salty treats eating habits. It’s good to know it’s not something I need willpower to fight against for, pure carnivore always solves it, I just need to avoid getting bored of meat and eggs. So I do some stricter times in the near future (not fully carnivore, I need my modest amount of juicy, crunchy radishes or else I will eat 2 apples and a jar of beetroot again. I want spring in my brain too. or maybe it’s partially physical, no idea).
But I probably need my dessert sometimes. That’s what I have sour cream and greek yogurt is for Just a bite in the end of my meal. I used coffee as dessert too, it doesn’t matter it only has a yolk in it, it is a dessert if I consider it one.
But typically a perfect satiation generated by eating lots of fatty meat turns off that desire. That’s cool. I just want to feel satisfied.
I never was a snacky type in the meaning when one ONLY has snacks. I need bigger meals and when I am hungry, I always want some substantial salty or sour food. A proper one. Nuts or crackers always were useless. So I get hungry, I go for eggs and meat. A lot of it. And then… It depends. If my food was tempting and substantial enough, that’s it and that’s great. I am fine with snacks sometimes, after my proper meal, just because it feels nice. Not because I feel I have to because I am addicted or something. That is bad, I don’t want to be a slave. I want to be free.
I for one never understood why people eat while watching something. I can’t focus on two things… I am a human so I need to eat very little food in volume (as I don’t like the low-density stuff. maybe egg whites but I eat that quickly too). I only can have food for some minutes a day, maybe 1 hour at most or else I overeat. I don’t want to waste that little time with my focus on something else, it would be a waste according to my inner hedonist… I understand certain exceptions but what people do, I don’t have that attitude or desire.
I will do my best not to talk about plants in the future. It’s not easy, I am surrounded with them. And for me, it’s relevant, I see how I change when I try them again. I still love tomato puree, it seems, I was wrong thinking I get farther from it or maybe I like it less often (and we already used it very sparingly. Alvaro’s food have 2 kg of it but it’s huge, barely fit into the cauldron over open fire and it’s a 8 liter one. not huge but not small). It’s so perfect with meat and I almost never had that combo in my life (due to almost never eating meat, mostly. and when I was a kid, Mom only did such a dish once in a blue moon. and it had meat stuffed into peppers and I hated cooked peppers. she learned this fact and skipped peppers after a while but it still was a rare dish. and it had rice, it’s super common to mix meat with rice here, the not-sausages with liver and blood are full with it, it’s inevitable. only the real sausages are okay).
Well we almost completely run out of tomato puree so I won’t eat it in the next weeks, that’s good due to my plans.
Sorry. Next time I will delete my comment if I mention plants. Maybe not spices. Alvaro’s food has lots of tandori masala. Interesting spice mix (and it has sugar, I had enough of having it in the super few not one-ingredient items we still buy we don’t feel the sugar or the salt in it so both are tiny amount but still. it’s unneeded).
That would last us for half a year Unless we got creative and we did last time… The bacon wrapped pork was good.
Bacon is processed stuff just like your salami and whatnot. And my sausages. The soft sausage is normal meat to me satiation wise (while fowls are not). I wouldn’t make a meal of it but if I have just a little leftover normal meat, it’s a nice addition. It would satiate and satisfy me. Bacon and dry sausage is almost just some decoration for my eggs, to make them nicer. I use the soft sausage like that too but that feels more substantial.
I can’t imagine how anyone with things to do or think about can be bored, actually. I am never bored. But I may understand. Well drinking should work for that. It depends how big of a variety one allows. I may drink various tea, water (cold and very warm), carbonated water and even coffee but that’s a can of worms sometimes… And I wanna almost quit. But it’s still better than eating without a need.
I can’t snack off meal times as snacking is having a meal so it becomes a mealtime. I don’t have very fixed mealtimes either. I eat when I can’t avoid eating. If I am satiated, I don’t feel any desire to snack (under normal circumstances. having the most tempting stuff around me for a while triggers desires unless I am perfectly satiated. that’s why Alvaro eating easily triggers me eating… it doesn’t happen all the time but I usually feel the pull eventually). If I am peckish, I clearly need a proper, bigger meal.
And there’s fancying some treats but not real food, I usually think it over then, it helps that I don’t snack out of the blue, only in the end of a proper meal… Or a bit later but if I hadn’t have enough food, I should just eat more. If the stuff is super great and I find it okay to snack on it, that’s some rare exception. I am flexible and allow joys very easily, being a hedonist. But I look at the whole picture, short term joy with longer term problems isn’t hedonistic.
It’s hard to think about it in general. I can imagine too many situations and states and I behave differently every time.
Don’t grab a nut That makes the difficulty level hardcore if you are anything like me And it’s not worth it anyway (usually. I have exceptions for everything I may enjoy).
Nuts are for Alvaro who can use them as a modest meal and does 10 hour physical activity afterwards. They are unsatiating useless things for me. Nope. Only on my wild days when I indulge my rebellious inner self before it explodes something very spectacularly in the worst time.
And some snacks are problematic even after getting kind-of satiated with proper food… I should learn that almost-satiation doesn’t mean I can’t get hungry after eating some (or very much) not right snack (that usually means carbs but some are tricky without that).
We get experiences and then we should eat accordingly. I personally fail myself, a lot but eventually I may learn. And a very rare wild day isn’t a big deal, I consider it inevitable. Especially when I eat right just a ton of fat. It’s fine, I just don’t want to do that often.
I think you should figure out what is the best: eating another meal or whatever… Sometimes there are no good solution or not so great ones, we can just mitigate the losses… Sometimes I realize late at night that I made a mistake at my normal meal(s). I can’t avoiding eating then but I still can choose what I do eat (usually). And if I do the next day right, it’s fine, I just get some energy and nutrients earlier than planned.
I have way too many thoughts for this thread and for my plans… Though I used my after-lunch time when I am lazier anyway but ready to talk about food.
Karen18
(Karen)
#69
Well i thought after all the meat I ate last night at the Brazilian restaurant, I would have been awake more through the night as protein usually makes my head very busy bit I actually slept pretty well. Got up 2/3 times for a wee but got back to sleep… I was a bit covers on covers off but all in all a successful night.
Up with my alarm and stair runs done just in the nick of time to get to CrossFit but not quick enough to get in the first heat fr the games 
I was still sweating when I arrived but soon cooled down before my heat. Hey ho I took it on the chin… I am learning not to make a fuss hahaha.
We had to do a workout with a 10 min cap of deadlifts and bar facing burpees. 1 of each, 2, 3 up to 10 of each then back down to 1. No one actually finished in the time cap. I did fairly respectable though I found it a heavy weight and my masters weight was less than the younger people. They did amazing with the heavy weight they had. I haven’t been doing weights, just mainly cv in order to get fitness back so that’s why I struggled with the weight. Only just started doing the barbel days this week. Anyway we shall see how far I have slid down the leader board come Monday night hahaha 
All that meat last night did not get in the way of the workout and it took a while before I felt like eating. The only reason I ate when I did was because I had to go and visit my dance partner who went into hospital early hours Friday. He has got to have stents. So I ate about 1230 and had the last pork loin chop that was in fridge.
Dinner was a small sirloin steak and a ribeye and both were lovely.
I forgot to take a pic of my pork lol.
Bought a couple of roddodendrums from lidl. One lilac and one white. Expecting a nicer day tomorrow so hopefully get all the plants potted and out at last.
Oh I was going to put a question to you all … who waits for their steak to rest the same time as cooking time before eating it ? 
for me i do wait more often than not though I don’t time the wait… just a guesstimate. I never used to bother but I really can taste the difference so try to wait each time I cook it. I am not usually so ravenous that I have to dig straight in!
Ketodaisy
(Daisy)
#70
Definitely not. Maybe 5 minutes max. And that’s mostly to keep from burning myself. I have no time or patience for all that.
robintemplin
(Robin)
#71
@Karen18 sorry, I don’t understand my sentence that includes the words steak and wait. 
Azi
(Linda )
#72
Nope not a waiter on steak but on things like prime rib i do…normally I’m not eating til like 3 in the afternoon so I’m usually pretty hungry …
Hmmm actually if I eat too early as sometimes happens thats prob when I start snacking…
Todays food I started my first meal with flounder fillet and finished with a strip steak… 2nd meal no clue yet.
Shinita
#73
I missed the topic and had horrible headache today (no idea why but 2 pills didn’t help, worst headache ever and maybe my number #5 worst pain ever. I hadn’t many big pains in my life and my memory may be not the best either but I am really not used to this level. it was awful) so I came to read and look at pics. And @Karen18 didn’t disappoint, pretty pic and the food suits the color of the plate so nicely! I am into meat now so I see lovely meals before me. Tomorrow I will need to eat a few some low-carb but not carnivore stuff, it happens sometimes but then I go super strict. Who needs dairy when I have pork chuck roast and eggs? Hopefully not me until my roast last (I don’t waste it on non-carni days when I have leftover meats too so I haven’t started to eat it yet) but IDK what my mind will do after this week.
I need determination as we won’t run out of cream yet… Coffee without cream when I have cream? I never did that (only in my fasting window). But I am sure I can do it. I skip coffee if I must, maybe that’s the best.
I didn’t even do my workout in the end. Stupid week. I expect way better from myself. At least I did walks. Just 2 villages away through the forest so a small one, 6km. With running as I never can leave in time, I want to get better at that too even though I probably will fail just like with waking up in the morning. But I am hopeful as always. It doesn’t seem impossible, after all. I have no faith in impossible things. Or things I consider impossible so I better not limit myself but I am sure I do. Probably every humans do it to some extent.
I never eat steak, sadly but I am not the waiting type especially when hungry. I don’t think I met a dish that gets so much better later that I consider waiting a good idea… If I can think about things and I am not hungry or tempted enough to just jump the food… My experience with meat is that good meat is good so why wait or why not wait when the latter is the right thing to do.
I doubt I am such a gourmet who care. A good meat dish is good immediately (when it doesn’t burn us anymore), good later and probably good cold, it may depend on the dish but I am pretty savage at that I think. Especially that I mostly eat roasts and they are famously good cold though I can understand if someone prefers them warm. I like to enjoy them warm too, I just very much like to enjoy them cold too. Sometimes they are better cold. Sometimes their fat is more amazing warm.
I really need to eat a steak this year.
JJFiddle
(Judy Thompson)
#74
Really? I’ve had D for 53 days and yeah it sucks but I’m stronger, in less discomfort, I look better, I’ve practically reversed arthritis which is something doctors told me could not be done. If I have D it means my gallbladder needs to get stronger to handle the fat in my meat (and eggs!). To call it quits before giving it a chance would be as dumb for me as it was for that journalist whose article I read. He gave up after just 5 days because of D! Granted, it’s miserable, especially at first before learning to at least marginally manage it. But it’s not a reason to quit unless you genuinely feel you were better off before.
Azi
(Linda )
#75
Yeah I didn’t get the big D while still eating ketovore mainly meat with maybe a little added this and that like a slice of tomato or a scrap of lettuce on a chaffle… but when I changed to carnivore yep I certainly noticed the difference expected to get constipated but nope the D it was for me it settled to once a day but I had to run right there and then and I do mean run but once I’d been ,I was good to go for rest of the day so it made things alot easier to manage I could even go to a store and get things done…
Its, amazing cutting out those last few items the difference it makes got rid of eczema rash not even meds would shift…im not perfect occassional nut here and there every 6 months or so normally around Xmas but last shopping day my husband grabbed a thing of macadamia nuts those were my fav nut pre carnivore but I’ve put the container up out of sight so I won’t be tempted any more… I need to foccuss on getting the rest of this weight off and nuts won’t help that…
2nd meal today i went with yogurt I’m just not so hungry today after that third meal last night.
I’m pleased to see that my appitite finally seems to be adjusting to a bigger then smaller meal.
I hope to see that continue…I decided to ask try making some bacon from pork belly will try some of that tomorrow and I took out some ribeye
JJFiddle
(Judy Thompson)
#76
Standing the steak? That’s nice to know because my meal takes 5 minutes to make, his takes an hour. When the steak is ready there’s always more to do so it’s nice to know it could actually improve the steak to stand a little bit!
This morning before teaching I was SO hungry, cut up a little turkey and cheese. Coffee is getting so I drink a little and then forget about it. I’ve discovered espresso with added hot water is about right, no cream.
This afternoon I put together the 1 lb rib eyes I bought last week for hubby, his brother and me. Found an idea on a keto site, cooking shrimp and bacon together. So surf and turf and the boys’ veggies, salad and dessert, quite a feast.
I don’t think I’ll need a snack tonight, but if so, liverwurst pate, I love it!
Ketodaisy
(Daisy)
#77
meal one was boars head uncured knockwurst. I definitely prefer the bratwurst. Meal two was Parmesan pork nuggets. So good! Dessert was the last serving of goat milk yogurt. Sorry, wasn’t going to dirty a bowl
FrankoBear
#79
I agree with @Azi observation that it starts small and cascades. Pork rinds to the next to the next. Snacks eat themselves and our higher level controls.
Snacking
I remember those days. To me snacking is a sign of psychological stress. Like when driving over long distance. Or, after delivering 2 lectures and 2 tutorials of college level education in a day ( a solid 8 hours dancing bear brain melting day) and having to brain flip into a hastily called staff meeting. With line managers up the line they think they are up the line in a hierarchy. I’ve identified the one that might have power enough to fire me. All the rest are down in the fishing line tangle of bureaucracy at the same level as me. Egalitarianism for the win! I just use them for what they can do to improve the quality of my teaching for the students.
It was on these keto forum boards years ago where someone advised that if you need to snack, eat a whole keto/ carnivore meal. You will do this a few times but realise you get a few bites into it and you are not hungry.
Being able to instinctively and sustainably stop snacking is a major achievement in this way of eating. These days at a gallery exhibition opening the stronger urge control is to not trip the waiter with the hors d’oeuvres platter rather than take one.
Light snacks served outside of the context of a meal are called hors d’oeuvres
Served outside of the context of a meal 
Also known as appetisers They are aimed at increasing hunger. Hors d’oeuvres are evil incarnate. Snacking increases hunger. Carnivore eating, proper, satiating meals, is hunger control.
Karen18
(Karen)
#80
Well having seen that you are an impatient bunch when it comes to eating your steak next question … how flippin big are the steaks you cook???
You see I can wait, I am quite a patient type in a lot of ways … not with dumb stupid people though, I don’t suffer fools hahaha but I can do menial mundane tasks, I would be okay on a production line, so long as I am not in a seated position all day. Having said that I have spent my entire working life in face to face jobs dealing with people on a daily basis which is perhaps why my patience has worn thin. Spending day in day out with people who have no reasoning skills, (mainly through early age drug abuse I suspect) and with co workers who think that team is spelt with and letter ‘I’ in it who ‘disappear’ and go walkabouts! But thats digressing slightly, I have the patience to wait because my steak takes maybe 1- 2 minutes to cook each side. I love them rare, 5 mins and they would be like leather for me! As I said that could be because I prefer thinner/smaller steaks and I always pan fry them as they tend to be so much more tender and juicy that way and I like the juice congealing on my plate, as I eat slowly that means it gets the time to congeal so I scrape that fatty juice on to the steak as I eat. Yum.
So I had a crappy night last night, neighbours always play music Saturday nights till between 1130pm and 1am. I really don’t have a problem with it as they are good neighbours and it is every Saturday and rarely any other night so I am used to it and I believe they have to live and enjoy their life as I did while my children were growing up. I know I was a bit noisy with music but most of us tend to grow out of that as we near retirement. I like peace and quiet now and I never thought I would ever say that! So anyway I was tired and fed up with TV so went to bed and just looked at FB posts and the funny animal videos as I could here the neighbours. I think I dozed in between louder beats of music and then I realised it was quiet when I was up for a wee as per. I had eaten cheese yesterday and it was evident while I was in bed. A bit of RLS and a busy head. It really made me realise how much it effects me so I am going to finish off the cheese for brunch and I am going to try to cut it out completely. I think my crappy night was also attributed to my back ache after yesterday’s deadlifts. I knew that my back would ache but having said that I did not tweak or pull it so I know it was just post workout soreness. I have a dicky back anyway with arthrosis of the top and bottom of my spine from a trauma years go so it was very stiff this morning. Straight on to stair runs and the difference afterwards was bliss. Still aches but I can move freely now!
Catch up with you all later. Sorry for a bit of a long post this morning:roll_eyes: