@PrimalBrian, I confess I didn’t actually read the article. I was basing my comment on what @Azi posted.
But now that I’ve looked at it; yes, the abstract mentions insulin and not cortisol.
Carnivore ZC SurfTurf-tember! 30-day September Challenge. 2022
FrankoBear
#42
Waking and fasting blood glucose: 6.2 mmol/L(112mg/dl), blood ketones 0.1mmolL.
Awesome abstract to share @Azi Linda.
Together, these studies show that “overeating” is caused by a complex feedback system of environmental, behavioral, and biological factors.
Can we trust ourselves? Can we trust the intuitive eating that we start to savour with ZC carnivore eating? Or, are we at the mercy of our ancestral genetics in a modern food environment? Why did the font get big when asking a bold question? Bolding is a bit shouty.
At least we generally have good access to steak 
. That is wavering a bit with post-pandemic economics, cost-of-living escalations, and out-dated supply chain disruptions.
I put my morning home collected blood results up there as I am following @Azi Linda’s lead stemming from some deeper, data-driven self investigation. I have been struggling from a difficult August with serial restaurant eating, and need some numbers to create the self-chat when it comes to food impulses.
But first, cortisol, and insulin. They are inter-linked with cortisol resulting in higher circulating blood glucose and stimulating release of insulin. One triggers the next. As an adjacent biomarker measure we can look at blood ketones as an added proxy for blood glucose and unseen cortisol and insulin responses. My blood ketones were present as a trace indicating that either blood ketones being produced are being used efficiently as fuel, or that a small amount of blood ketones are being produced despite excursional eating off-plan. I think it is the latter. But both are good news in that blood ketones are present, which indicates that insulin production is low. Hooray. 
@Fangs will solve it with three words, “Stay on Plan.” The pragmatic question arises, “How?”
It brings us back to finding. To finding our way. And in so doing, finding our once thought lost self. As we sense from a distance and foster reconnection to the lost one, we gain strength. Getting on to, and staying on the quest is challenging.
I like that @Azi Linda is highlighting the nuances of eating ZC carnivore and working with the ‘eating to blood glucose measurements’ as suggested by Marty Kendall (see the August ZC thread). We need to be aware that subconscious blood glucose variations occur and that ‘eating by numbers’ can be misleading, if we don’t understand what is happening with our own physiology.
Anyhow, I like the complex biological science. I think I’ll do some testing this month as well as get back on plan.
I am back out in the countryside, so can get better controls on the health levers. We are oscillating between cold, grey winter, and hints of sunny springtime. Working outside. Orchid spotting, wildlife watching, creating and readying a garden, and growing a forest that are currently, tiny, fragile seedlings - to be here when we are gone.
Yesterday was bacon and eggs breakfast. 1.5 coffees with cream. Then delicious, thick cut, organic lamb chops (the current cheapest meat), which were cooked in some butter on the stove top of the woodfire. Reading that back, I feel contentment wash through me. Goal is to live like this for ever increasing time periods.
The large black cockatoos in the photo are critically endangered white-tailed black forest cockatoos. They have bred nearby in some remnant centuries old trees This is a breeding pair with their fledgling in between. They are feeding on the gum nut fruit of a Marri tree I planted 25 years ago. I took the image on an iPhone 4, and it was blurred, so I played with it a bit, allowing a bit of art to flow into the story.
Blood glucose is now 5.6 / 100 at midday. I feel hunger. Time for NoFUN bacon and eggs breakfast.
coopdawg
#43
Me for one, appreciates all the self exploration that goes on within the people involved in this topic/thread.
I get it. It’s helping people. And I support that.
Keep 'er lit folks 
Shinita
#44
Yesterday I just couldn’t eat enough. No idea why. I had my protein, I ate much fat too… Maybe my super early first meal (but I was hungry so no regret there) combined with other things…? I should be more careful. Straying a bit surely didn’t help so I go stricter now and not only on Monday. I keep my tiny processed meat (I thought about 20g grill sausage and 16g - I have this much - pork belly in my scrambled eggs - and the last 30g fried pork I put onto my plate days ago…) but only add cheese if I feel the need, I ate very much of it yesterday, 60g! It’s fine now and then but combined with everything else, I borderline overate. And was not satiated too often. Once I had a quite overeating paleo day while (feeling wise) starving all day, I have these weird combos but it’s understandable, my food choices and timing matters quite much. And anyway, I had 4 days with calorie deficit in 5 days (as far as I can tell but I think I can this time) so a higher-cal day was expected anyway (I have those even without deficit, good thing I don’t gain just because I eat more than I need).
Hopefully things will stop being this difficult soon. I want chill and joy and everything. Energy, first of all. I have super low energy today, possibly connected to the gloomy weather. Or just the morning, I almost always wake up way more tired than I was at bedtime (the exception is when I go to bed after 2-3am, I am not very energetic then). We will see what happens later. I am almost fall asleep and that would be tragic on multiple levels, I slept enough so more rest would trigger my “too much sleep” headache. I need to do things anyway. My mood is okay.
Why do I whine here, it’s so stupid, talking about things never helped me, I think. But my filter is even more non-existent when I am sleepy… I am prone to thinking by writing anyway.
Fangs
#45
wonderful chat on the board.
I think it is an easy How? But the hardest darn thing you will ever do in one’s life.
It is a journey of self discovery. Simple as that but how one goes about it can be treacherous and what is one willing to do deep down to make a lifelong change in their lives. Another simple answer…how bad do you desire this change and what are you willing to do for it? I am not talking starving and yoyo dieting, I am talking learning reasearch, finding our path, following people in success and grabbing all you can to make the journey easier on ourselves and also change our mindset and well being in the process.
We ALL KNOW life is unbalanced today. It is not a normal progression if one is to ‘stay basic to nature’ ya know.
Also one has to think long term. We are programmed for instant gratification now. Simple as that. Cracked reality. Now how do we change our mindset to realize that it doesn’t work on alot of issues. No magic pill. No sign here and all your worries are gone contract 
Like financial issues, buy a lottery tick and hope? Yea good luck with that 
Nope…most go get a new career or learn new job skills and then one has the means to truly change long term. Income for life. A growth of learning and skills. A purposeful life as it is meant to be. A challenge to adapt and change and a job earned is purpose and success long term.
One gets up every day and goes to work, or work from home but hrs are dedicated to doing just that. Now in the food world, each meal is our job also to stay dedicated and then we earn our income from it, great improved health and more benefits. Which is kinda more important? a dollar in your hand or a healthy body? Again, how bad do you need change and want it?
A pilgrimage. from the net: Pilgrimage, a journey undertaken for a religious motive . Although some pilgrims have wandered continuously with no fixed destination, pilgrims more commonly seek a specific place that has been sanctified by association with a divinity or other holy personage.
While we know the above is mostly used in a religious aspect, how easy is it to take out the religion aspect and find we can build a purpose and goal and head toward it with discovery to make our goals be a reality. A pilgrimage of self discovery and what it takes for us.
It has to be mind, body and soul. While we eat what works for us we also must learn why it works, we must realize to keep ALL the great benefits we earned so dearly can not be taken for granted.
So yea, I have to say number 1 is STAY ON PLAN…learn while on it. Ask those who succeed how they did it and take advice that suits you and learn what doesn’t work for yourself, then one must also explore how to change the mindset to keep your success in focus and one must know if one leaves the path…which is the plan they choose…one will encounter big pitfalls and dangers.
Our long term lifestyle change is SO MUCH more than just about food.
but darn, that food has to be a key item here cause we have to eat well, get healthier, then we think more clear and we learn and change more.
I know I hit ‘enough is enough’ and I went all in and said DONE and my repeated mantra was ‘no matter what’ I would stay on plan. I had massive internal brain battles with myself LOL but I also know I have changed SO much I even suprised myself I had no idea I had it in me but I do and many others showed me the way.
So the HOW here is very personal to each of us. But the journey starts with a single step but they key also is to keep ones eyes open for dangers along the path, bob and weave and learn how to cope. Accept change. Learn new skills to always help us. Learn the science behind it cause this world today is a massive trap of deception in the food game
I know others have info about the how and why they got to where they are…I got here out of sheer gumption. Sheer want of change and when I realized there is no magic bullet and instant gratification, and this was super hard to accept LOL I then put in the work and years to change my body, mind and soul.
the journey is never over. just cause one gets to their destination doesn’t mean one has to stop learning and growing. One can take a focus so much off the intitial journey of why they wanted this change, stay on plan and keep the success one achieved, but one can also then look outside this more narrow focus and start to find new journeys to keep their lives in purpose and growth. There are many paths out there and we can’t just live on one path, we are meant to be in growth and on other paths for mind body and soul
So that is kinda how I think of all this.
My pilgrimage has given me SO much ya know. While I am typing this I am smiling big also knowing what it has given me is priceless actually.
Stay on Plan. 3 simple words but how one goes about it is a self discovery personal journey for sure.
Azi
(Linda )
#46
For me gining weight has shown me left to my own intuitive eating plan doesn’t work for me I can and do gain weight.
Eating to my meter has cut back the extra eating …although last night I allowed an extra meal of pork skin crackling be interesting to see if it made my numbers go back up slightly but if I don’t experiment I’ll not know.
But its also teaching me I don’t need as much food in a serving… I dont have to eat til I’m stuffed fill and I’m not left starving hunting through the cuboards
Being a little hungry is ok too I still have many meals left in body fat for my body to munch on…
And even in my blood at this point…
Fangs
#47
So agree with this but only time I required eating tons is when I started zc. ZC then changed my appetite and needs…but darn that mind hunger and old habits and our zc food being so darn good…I mean juicy ribs, yummy crispy burnt fat, I mean come on HAHA
a little hungry is ok. I used to think that was a bad thing but later in the journey I realized it is a great thing and not something to ‘watch out’ for but to be used as real body signal that food will come later when I really NEED it and again, on zc I know when that really is.
longer on an eating change is a different thought and body pattern that newer people have to experience and still physically change along with the mentality of it but like you said for you, you have to experiment a bit to make it ALL fit you and you are doing just that.
great post.
You’ve done so well K for what you experienced! Not a doubt in my mind you will continue to improve but at that same time, there is a ‘new smaller you’ in there You find what works best to suit your new you and that will come about as you see how life is best and in what circumstances.
Enjoy!!!
Azi
(Linda )
#48
Yes I agree I’m not sure when I first started I could limit food I went into a ragging hunger stage…but after last night’s added eating last night proved yet again isn’t helping me .
This morning blood sugar reading 103 back to no snacking eating my two meals and being done.
Breakfast a smaller flamken rib so added two slices of bacon 2 eggs and egg coffee
Fangs
#50
yea that took me a bit to ditch. I relied so much on ‘eat the food’ to keep me on plan cause I didn’t ever want to feel restricted, or deprived, or IRK’d I needed to not eat as it was a punishment to me, never a good thing so I did keep some snacking in my life til little by little I just dumped it. I ended up on 2 meals per day, the perfect solution for me that fit me. Now snack is just not in my vocab. cause I found a little food only makes me hungrier all the time (might be all about your blood sugar chat we are having which I for sure know there is a correlation) but I found that my first meal MUST be my big meal. I eat very well and more than enough and that ‘helps control’ and gives me a ‘break’ on my second meal. Then I can do alot of changing on how hungry am I really and it helps me judge that second meal too on what I might need, like sardines come to mind on my second meal…never my first.
I find one big first meal, my ‘set’ meal which is a heavy protein like a steak, full all, all in, or a few monster pork chops etc is key for me.
second meal becomes an after thought which is a wonderful meal in my life
So yea we do keep changing for sure about where we are on the time line and we can’t be the same cause while we feel ourselves changing, we don’t truly know our insides, our body, how it is still repairing and rebalancing hormones and more ya know…so it is a long all in journey but a darn good one from the food we get to thrive on tho
great chat, enjoying just regular ol’ zc chat and how our plan changes us and we work on it
robintemplin
(Robin)
#51
I guess I am an odd duck. Also the proverbial Lucky Duck. I put zero thought into my food these days. Meat and more meat, usually thrown in the air fryer. I only think to eat when the clock reminds me or my tummy grumbles. And then, while I enjoy the food, I realize it no longer provides a sense of joy… like it used to.
I could decide that’s a sad thing. But the joy I found in eating carbs for so many years, did not serve me well. So, today I find my joy in other places. Not on a plate.
I realize many of you love cooking and truly savor every bite. Part of me is envious, but I know this is better for me. Maybe it’s the old addict in me… the absence of the thrill in partaking of any substance is a safe place for me. And carnivore is what got me here.
Keto was like attending AA meetings… got me off the carb addiction. I had to pay attention, pre-plan, measure and track and mentally work at it. Perfect way to begin my recovery.
Then carnivore introduced me to what it must be like to drift on a smooth sea. Gotta tell ya… calm waters are where it’s at. For me. Maybe not exciting. But the inner peace is priceless.
Naghite
(Michael)
#53
First meal this month, broke 86 hour fast with a big breakfast.
Beef thymus, heart, chicken liver, sheep spleen and testicles, wild caught Atlantic salmon and large bowel of bone broth.
Hope everyone is having a great weekend.
Naghite
(Michael)
#54
I think my blood glucose is higher than with Keto due to eating more food and fasting less. My IR is not going down over the past 6 months, so I will start tracking ketones while fasting and using the next couple fasts to determine my plan based on those blood results. Hope it works, will let you know.
Karen18
(Karen)
#56
Yesterday had a very chilled day then got ready for glitz n glam black tie evening. Its been rely great getting all dollies up these last 2 nights. Eveningmeal served in the ballroom and I started with ardennes patè followed by loin of pork and the smallest amount of cheese for desert. I was a bit concerned it would kick my addiction again but fortunately it didn’t. I managed to go right passed the cheese selection in the farm shop today. Danced till after midnight so was pleased about that. I did however have a bit of a thats it moment before the evening started . While waiting in the small bar area I got a moment when the noise level suddenly increased and the balloon started blowing up inside my head. I quickly left the room for a quieter spot outside to allow my head to reset. I was okay after that. I am not out of the woods yet but I am learning how to manage stuff. Brilliant weekend.
Ate 3 sausages, 2 eggs and a few rashers of bacon from the breakfast servery on the drive home. When I got home I half seared 2 small rump steaks and had them with duck patè that I bought in farm shop. Folliwed that with picked mussels.
Shinita
#57
Rabbity day… I still can’t really eat my pork, I had a tiny slice of pork chuck, some processed pork and several eggs for protein, some cheese too. I have plans for tomorrow, it will be fine. And I go back to no-dairy carnivore (my weekend was off but I stuck to most of my rules so that’s something and promising even if where I break one, I wasn’t subtle. this meat problem really threw me off and my weekends are more problematic anyway).
So I am back to my strict style carni - except I keep my spices and condiments if needed so it’s my normal no-dairy style. I had cheese due to my meat problems in the weekend, it felt good but I didn’t miss my other usual dairy items. It’s normal since some time. Cheese wasn’t desired either, just nice and I needed all the help without my staple pork.
I have plans for tomorrow: I fry 70/30 pork (I used up my lard so need to render more - and the scratchings are fun!) and chicken liver (that’s what I need the lard for though I often have scrambled eggs too these days). I have pork skin too, I grind it, add eggs, spices and maybe some pork too, I always enjoy that! I have sponge cakes and I can make pâté too… I doubt I will stay hungry even if I still can’t eat much pure pork.
And I have various meats in the freezer for later. It should be fine. I want a good week. I had my lame first half-week with partial success (little part especially if we look at more than just food) but now let’s be serious about everything and keep sticking to the rules I did this far too.
I forgot about the existence of coffee, that’s good.
Weather gets warmer in the near future, forecast says, tiny rain may happen but it will be mostly sunny. We will see, today was gloomy first and we both had to take naps (Alvaro barely slept at night, he has that problem when stressed. it’s probably calling a lawyer, among others. still his accident, things go slow with that, it’s the part where the insurance company is reluctant after paying a minuscule amount of money and a good lawyer is needed and Alvaro’s original one didn’t keep her promise about asking a pro at that) but we had a nice sunny walk later in the wildlife park (with big elevation this time. the pines in the hilltop are still okay, yay! so many others are sick. the view to the pond is spectacular from there). I feel way more alive now but dinner was multi-part, I mean, I realized after some time afterwards I STILL need food (no wonder, I barely ate but I lack a proper staple I can eat much of) so had an egg, a bite of rabbit and my last grill sausage… It’s not convenient but hopefully being strict and determined and NOT eating too early will help. I never get hungry this early on normal days, it’s a weekend thing but being tired has a correlation with it too.
FrankoBear
#58
Waking fasting blood glucose is 6.6mmol/L (119mg/dl). Blood ketones: 0.1mmol/L.
I am currently involved in a local community campaign against an inappropriate holiday resort development they want to build on the local wild beach. It’s stressful.
I’ll have a coffee and retest in a while. I could eat breakfast, but I recognise that it is not real hunger that I feel.
The donkey orchids have emerged on our property, in our small woods. They are the first of the orchid varieties to appear as we move into Spring.
Had NoFUN breakfast with BG at 5.9mmol/L (106). A 13mg/dl drop in blood glucose = hunger. That’s why getting the fasting BG down gradually like @Azi Linda is doing is an important adjustment. To reduce that blood glucose drop.
JJFiddle
(Judy Thompson)
#59
Wow. Two days since I had a chance to chime in but just finished all the intervening posts, wonderful discussion.
I wonder if the mind body connection that raises blood sugar can be triggered by artificial sweeteners? And if that’s one reason ZC doesn’t allow them? I finally put all that stuff in a box last week to give to my keto (in name) brother, he’ll appreciate them I hope.
I still find that coffee, with or without cream, takes the place of sweets at the end of a meal. I am still glad that’s true.
Staying on plan really is a daily decision. I’m lucky to have no particular distraction. Also I find with my musc, I play much much better while ZC. I used to fast, and found I would play much better while fasted. Did some good performances in my 20s in the midst of week long fasts.
It’s been 9 monts since I started the year with PSMF and moved into carnivore 12 days into the month.
While I can’t imagine leaving this pilgrimage, I know from experience how easy it is to slip off the pony and land face first in the sugar and starch! So just being vigilant, and especially, reading and listening always to keep the mind occupied with right things - is all I know how to do. And still the mind can suddenly just say hey! Let’s have some of that. Let’s not do this anymore. It’s happened to me way too many times. But now I do feel, this is the end of the line. If this ultra healthy plan doesn’t work for me, there’s not much left.
This morning, communion Sunday. Uh-oh! So I ate that tiny square of bread and drank that tiny glass of juice. My first bread in 2022? I think so. Made me laugh. And remember a family I had Christmas Eve dinner with a long time ago when we were no-flour-no-sugar and he they had communion at the table, and the husband said, “The Host doesn’t count.” Sokay. I went home and had a boiled egg to balance it out and didn’t think about it again.
Yesterday, long long day. We played for 3 hour in the hot metal open building that is the Grapetown Winery, then home for a bit and back out for our Saturday night strolling at the seafood place. We ate after my morning teaching and before the 1st job, and when we came home the brisket came out of the sous vide and needed an ice bath, so I ate the rest of the chicken on the carcass to get the bowl for the ice, and that really did its job! Home at 11:30 and found no need to eat or drink anything. We didn’t get to bed til about 1, and woke up with cramps in my feet at 6. Walked them out and went back to sleep for another hour and a half. Nice!
This morning before church, a boiled egg, and the aforementioned egg before we were going to town. We went but it’s a holiday weekend and there was no parking so we came home and I immediately fell asleep. Woke up and fixed a meal at 4, ground wild boar and alfredo sauce (to reduce the gameyness a bit).That did the trick and now sitting out here with a weak vodka-sodastream in front of me, which I probably won’t drink much of, like most other nights.
(Yesterday’s lunch is here too.)
And, back to Monday. Mondays and Tuesdays are the easiest now, just teaching. Used to be the hardest!
@robintemplin Like you, with carni I don’t have these orgasmic highs with food anymore. Just eat, be done with it. Seems best.
Fangs
#60
Wonderful to hear you are managing the new you So happy it was such a great dance holiday!
yup, sometimes we have to put in some work for the changes we want to experience, cool…more power to you!!!
Sorry on lawyer and accident stuff with Alvaro. Never a stress free moment when all that happens but I hope a new lawyer can help him alot on the issue!
I bet that is super stressful but what a wonderful cause…fight to keep the wild beach and natural environment. HooRaa on that one FB, can only hope for the best outcome for all you guys!
me too which is why when I found a plan like zc, where I CAN EAT ALL I want and feel wonderful, I feel this ‘end of the line’ is the place best suited for a person like me. I think also you got a huge zc backbone in ya, you took to it like a duck to water kinda and are thriving on this plan, but remember one thing always, YOU CAN eat when you NEED to eat on this plan. Never deny yourself ever, that put that old ‘dieting restriction and punishment and misery’ on our carnivore plan where that just isn’t allowed, lol…you rocking it JJ!
Force of Nature…what a great name for a meat company, made me smile!
-----------bridal shower very nice. had a good time. did not eat before going since it was just too early and I just wasn’t hungry so I took a crapshoot on this day but I was super good surprised…it was order off menu and I had an omelet option. 3 egg omelet with 4 sides to choose in it…3 portions of bacon and white cheddar. OMG SO DARN good…best omelet I had in decades. My kid got fancy waffles and preceded to eat over 1/2 my omelet. I tell ya…ugh…I said don’t get that sweet stuff, get real food but nope, it was a draw ‘petite pearl sugar belgium waffles with fresh berries’ and I knew it, she only ate a bit of hers and polished off most of my omelet. So I had ‘just enough’ to get home, walk in the door and heat up my mini meatloaf fastest I ever heated up food before LOL I was very hungry by then but I survived the zc way and my meatloaf fit the bill fast. yum
today will be a big ribeye steak since I didn’t eat alot yesterday, I even woke up a tad hungry so yea, food today for this ol’ carnivore.
will pair with shrimp…my ribeye and shrimp day, my Surf/Turf-tember going down.