Carnivore vs Mediterranean keto


#41

And here both beef and seafood is expensive and not so much available and I love pork anyway so I eat that… Some more seafood would be nice but I never would depend on it (unless I would have no other options than to do that). So it’s about my personal taste too, not just circumstances and financial situation. There are so many factors to guide our food choices, of course we chose differently.

This is the first forum where I saw many carnivores (and not distant ones only talking about food in a few words)… There are plenty of non-carnivores here as well. Some people eat way over 20g carbs too… It shouldn’t matter for us as individuals what others follow when we decide about our individual woe. And people seem quite tolerant here, they have their own beliefs but they rarely try to force their ideals on others (or I am not sensitive, I surely ignored everything liked that all my life, maybe I don’t notice these things). Fangs is one of my favs as she is cool with others doing what is good for them (and she is super enthusiastic :smiley: the whole carnivore bunch here is nice for some reason, I always had a nice time in the carnivore threads, I went there while not doing anything remotely carnivore, I was merely interested or something, I don’t remember the first times and I wasn’t even kicked out :smiley: far from it). Too many people in the world think only their way is right, that’s quite annoying.


(Edith) #43

The other thing I might add is that a number of us on the carnivore thread are middle aged or older. We’ve had more years of damage from following the SAD. For us, carnivore is helping undo the damage. You look young in your picture. Maybe eating the way you are now, will prevent you from the need to transition to carnivore some day.


(Robin) #44

Absolutely! that is a good point!


#45

In my mind the carnivore is not the «best of the best», but the «sickest of the sick» in terms of having issues that demands an extreeme elimination diet. And when you find something that works, after feeling bad for decades…well, feeling a bit protective is natural.

The issues can be both physical or mental, as in addictive eating problems like me. I love my vegetables, I have never been able to stick with keto for more than a few weeks without «falling off the wagon». So Im trying carnivore, im three months in, and find it easy to stay on this plan without «cheats», which in turn allow my body to start loosing weight, and healing from metabolic syndrome.

It is ofcourse right that you call your traditional eating «mediteranian diet», being from the region, but the term has been hijacked, and given different content by various other groups. Lately I have seen the term used by vegans end vegetarians to underscore why animal foods are bad for your health, they then describe the mediteranian diet as plant based, with maybe some fish, once in a blue moon.


(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #46

Well put. What I would say is that I am surprised that the “sickest of the sick” end up eating only meat. If I knew nothing, I would put a 0% to this scenario, and more like a 99% probability that the “sickest of the sick” would end up eating vegetables, eggs, fish and maybe a bit of chicken.

It is so different from the experience I see around me in Barcelona, that there has to be another explanation. For this reason I have suggested issues of food quality, like GMOs, since otherwise, I simply cannot understand.

Second: Mediterranean diet is clearly NOT vegan nor vegetarian. Med diet is rich in fish and seafood, but also clearly in eggs and meat, especially pig, chicken, rabbit and sheep, but also cows.

What probably is true is that before most people were poor and they could not afford meat every day, or at least, not in big portions. Legumes were a substitute for meat protein.


#47

I always felt quite healthy on all my diets but if it can be even better… And overeating isn’t fun even if we are healthy and carbs mess with me, keto alone wasn’t enough… But I enjoy the simplicity… I have even less items I need to buy :smiley: Tracking is super easy on my no-dairy carni days :smiley: I am curious so I do the on/off things with tracking too.
If I just do a quite carby day, still nothing or almost nothing happens (it depends, though but my insides extremely rarely feel bad, no matter what I do - okay, I don’t do very bad things but eating a ton of wrong food, I can do that), I wonder what my body will do after a longer term carnivore period but any pull from carby food will probably go away. Even a short time changed things so much… And I feel way more free. Overeating is one thing, carbs can trigger compulsive eating too, without any need or real joy and it’s very much not hedonistic. My main goal in life is probably being a good hedonist so it’s very shameful when I fail at hedonism. Especially now that I have a very good idea about how I should eat.

Similar except I always go off carnivore too… But still, carnivore is more enjoyable and way easier than keto and I had 40g net carbs and probably often over 80g total… Below 20g? Impossible for me without carnivore. And I would start to feel uncomfortable under as 20g is very much needed for me on carnivore on some days. It’s quite easy and pleasant to do 3-5g, even for me but I like my carbier days as they give me variety. Fortunately I feel the same, no matter how low I am as long as I mostly avoid plants. But it’s mostly about carbs for me, I never noticed any problem with any plant or mushroom (if a mushroom is hard on someone despite being edible, that’s not me who gets unwell but my family members), it’s carbs per day, simple sugars and omitting the aftercare (fatty protein after eating very sugary things).

If someone realizes that plants make them sick, no wonder they avoid them…
Of course there are very different sick people, vegetables are great for one and the worst idea for the others. It seems people have different ideal ranges for carbs (even though the type of carbs matter too). Mine just doesn’t allow vegetables in bigger amounts and it’s good as vegetables are poretty useless from my viewpoint. Very expensive, one works with them a lot and they become a dish that just makes me hungrier… And it’s not nearly as lovely as some meat or egg dish. I don’t need it even for variety. And yeah, normal people eat vegetables with meat or eggs (I pretty much skipped that, I went from vegetarian keto/low-carb to carnivore-ish and as I lost interest in vegetables when I did it, even my off days are just animal stuff, some nuts and high-carb things in small amounts, not vegetables. not even legumes and those are my favs as they have a satiation effect due to the protein content) but if I add carbs like vegs, my need for variety shoot up and it won’t be as good as meat alone (or with other meat or eggs. I have plenty of variety on carnivore but if I add plants, I lose it somehow)… So vegetables just make everything worse. I never noticed I would need them for anything since I added meat. I wouldn’t like to be a vegetarian without vegetables, they had a big role there but that’s in the past. And I adored my vegetables anyway (except green leaves, ew, most of those never looked like food to me and the taste was even worse). But I so, so don’t miss all the work that only resulted in some joy and I had to find something to get satiated with…

I had some keto/low-carb/moderate-carb days lately… And I don’t understand how on earth did I that without OMAD. I just became an endless pit that is very very hard to satiate, I just stop at some point as things feel heavy and I may get bored with eating already… It’s WAY more clear, natural, healthy when I just eat the food that my body wants. A ton of carbs with a ton of fat and little protein, those dishes are the worst as I can eat them in an almost endless loop, never satiates just add calories, a lot and keep my hunger and dissatisfaction too high to stop eating so I switch to some proper food. But if I do that to begin with, it’s loads better.

Okay, it’s not a keto mediterranean diet at all but the problem is the same, too much carbs mess up things and if a food has little protein, that’s not really useful for me. I can get everything I need from the proper, satiating food so why would I add problematic things? Makes no sense. Vegs stay flavorings but good meat and egg doesn’t even need any, it’s just variety and fun here and there :slight_smile:

If I couldn’t afford meat (despite some kinds of meat being among the cheapest items and only split peas could compete with their prices), I would eat legumes and gluten along with my eggs and maybe quark… I had gluten free years and meals with 160g gluten as well (gluten satiates me but I still need a significant amount), my body was fine with both. Maybe long term high-gluten still wouldn’t be good but I wouldn’t do that anyway, it just would serve as some variety as I can’t live on eggs (I would probably eat 12 eggs a day but that’s my natural upper limit, I think). I wouldn’t add normal, low-protein vegetables as it wouldn’t make sense and vegetables are very expensive anyway. Grains makes no sense either. Maybe I would add some oily seeds. But only protein-rich and low-carb plants would be okay (in more than minimal amounts), the rest just would add cost and problems.

Seafood is not available and usually wildly expensive but I don’t like most items and they aren’t substantial enough anyway. It’s probably like chicken, I may eat a kilogram and stay hungry… I need some proper meat as my staple. And eggs. I often have low-meat days and eating eggs with something else works well.
But vegetables… They would just mess things up, not helping anything.


#48

I thougth so too, being raised on how vegetables are the most healthy substance on earth. But now i know better, the plants doesent provide anything i cannot get from animals, and I cannot argue with the way I feel, clearly what I thought i knew, wasent the whole truth.


(bulkbiker) #49

Why does this surprise you?

Meat is what mankind developed eating over millennia and through adverse weather conditions.

Imagine trying to survive on vegetables through a meter of snow?

We have evolved to thrive on it.


#50

I think this is the point. You say, “If I knew nothing,” - but that isn’t quite true. None of us were born and instinctively knew that vegetables are good for us; it’s been a message that we’ve all been indoctrinated with since birth.

Personally speaking, I loved vegetables and was not overly pleased about giving them up - but I noticed major improvements when I stopped eating them.

We accept in keto circles that general food messaging is incorrect - things like, ‘restrict salt’, ‘eat heart healthy whole grains’, ‘carbs are a necessary fuel’.

In that context, it doesn’t seem outrageous that carnivores picked up ‘eat a large number of fruits and vegetables from the colour of the rainbow’ and dismissed it.

Carnivore is not just about meat. It’s an animal based foods approach - meat, poultry, fish, eggs. It’s just that some people feel better at certain times on certain cuts of meat, so their food might seem repetitive to a non-carnivore.

But to understand carnivore, you really have to drop the idea in your mind that ‘vegetables are healthy’ is a fixed rule. I get it - it’s difficult to change your mind about something that’s “obviously true”.


#51

Even if us carnivores are a loud bunch in our corner on this forum, we are few and far between out there in the world.

Mediterranean diet is clearly NOT vegan nor vegetarian. Med diet is rich in fish and seafood, but also clearly in eggs and meat, especially pig, chicken, rabbit and sheep, but also cows.

I know, right? And also dairy like yoghurt, oh, and the cheeses… I love YOUR mediterranian diet.


#52

:face_with_raised_eyebrow::face_with_raised_eyebrow:

OK YOU! OK YOU!! You better watch it :clown_face::astonished:

Yea I think that is true but I noticed alot of the others like KD and Azi and a few more are on that younger area, which I do love having the younger people hit this plan, they are that younger group that can show that it is a plan for alot of us with being ‘good’ as in youngers are adopting it…but yes you can put me in there, soon to be 60! :roll_eyes::crazy_face:

@Shatz

I really loved your post.

I think so many hit carnivore thru desperation and who is sick truly and needs relief but that wasn’t me at all…you sound like me, insulin issues and sensitivity…no matter how low I went on carbs I couldn’t control me, but on carnivore I have absolute control and all the most wonderful benefits from eating this way!!

US Super Sensitive Insulin people do very well on carni.
Plus those who truly came here for med issues and truly those med issues that are life depleting have found alot of healing on carnivore.


#53

Exactly Mark!

A person must follow and seek and research real knowledge about nutrition and more to ‘get it’ ya know but many aren’t there at all and post out wild statements, but in the end, I guess they find the way and learn to reserach and find real science truths behind real nutrition…well we hope :slight_smile:

and then chopping down a few hundred feet of firewood to allow your survival for a few days and then walk to school, uphill all the way, a few miles and uphill all the way home after :astonished::clown_face: But yes physical survival on veg in harsh climates ain’t happening…ever.


(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #54

First, mankind evolved in warm climate. Most humans were not exposed to a meter of snow.

Second, there is summer, with fruits and all that. It would seem odd that our bodies were not prepared to absorb all those calories.

There is another thread in this forum about the science of keto, and if keto is the natural state of Man or not. I think cycling keto/vegetables-fruits, depending on season, is what Man is used to do.


(bulkbiker) #55

Most modern fruits and vegetables did not exist in their current forms tens of thousands of years ago and were neither attractive nor especially palatable.
What do the indigenous people living in the natural areas that man evolved in eat now? Look at the Masai and the indigenous Australians diets based mainly around meat (or at least they were until the 20th Century hit with its terrible impact).


(Take time to smell the bacon) #56

And the Maasai did well on their traditional diet well into the 20th century. Dr. George Mann did a study of them in the 1960’s, and could only find one man who might possibly have had a heart attack (the EKG was unclear, apparently). Whereas their cousins who had moved to the city and adopted the white man’s diet, had just as many of the chronic diseases as the surrounding population.

Gary Taubes came across 19th-century reports from British doctors who treated the native populations of Africa, as well as from colonial administrators looking for potential draftees to serve as auxiliaries to the British Army, documenting that the Maasai were noticeably, taller, stronger, and healthier on their diet of meat, blood, and milk, than were their Kikuyu neighbours, who ate a mostly plant-based diet.

The tribes of the Great Plains of North America were likewise noted for their height, strength, and health, as well as for the high percentage of them who lived to be older than one hundred—at least, until they were pushed off their hunting grounds and had to adopt the white man’s diet.


#57

and if one wants real truths thru real eyes research V Steff and Anderson in it FULL truths:

The Stefansson – Anderson story has been repeated in many forms over the last hundred years around the world as primitive societies with very low rates of heart disease, obesity and diabetes, transitioned into the world of “western” food. As soon as they did, they developed western diseases, like diabetes and heart disease. The story is repeated in the Pima Indians, the Zulu in Africa. Schweitzer, in Africa, was amazed at the lack of cancer he found. Hutton, a missionary in Labrador, wrote that he didn’t see a case of cancer or heart disease in the Inuit until they settled and started eating western foods, meaning biscuits, flour and sugar.

then this when IT ALL was over for their expedition and they got home and got SICK on grains/wheat/veg and sugar/fruit and more.

NOW I say all research it in form cause to me this shows OH SO much yet so long ago and so discounted but life is life and these facts are NOW facts!


#58

without all in meat protein and ‘the spear’ and hunting in ‘groups’ and more mankind wouldn’t be here point blank. It is what it took all in for real evolution. So much research on it, to me it is not even acceptable to think otherwise cause the brain grew on meat/fat intake…so…what do we think now in this age, back to the weeds to eat and thrive? Me thinks not HA


(Take time to smell the bacon) #59

Weston A. Price noticed the same transition in the populations he dealt with. Being a dentist, he especially noticed the advent of dental caries (cavities) within a certain number of years after the transition, followed by the chronic diseases a decade or so later.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #60

@MarkGossage is correct 100%. Folks who think that our ancestors ate ‘fruit’ and ‘veggies’ to ‘fatten up’ for winter bear the onus of showing exactly what ‘fruit’ and ‘veggies’ they’re talking about. As Mark says, almost 100% of what we now call ‘fruit’ and ‘veggies’ did not exist. Most have been developed within the past couple hundred years. The wild ancestors of our current edible fruits and vegetables were/are extremely nutrient dilute, composed mostly of indigestibel cellulose and lignin. You can demonstrate this fact for yourself by spending a week or two in any forest or wilderness area of your choice during spring, summer or fall. Try to live off only the plant products you collect. You can even carry a copy of any book by Euell Gibbons to help you.

The same applies to ‘grains’ and ‘legumes’. Try making bread from wild grass. The so-called ‘starch hypothesis’ is nonsense as well. I don’t think our ancestors were so stupid they expended the energy and time required to dig up roots when the payoff was only a fraction of the time/energy expended getting it. Many just don’t realize how extensive and successful the agricultural revolution of the Holocene has been. I think it has also been a nutritional and health disaster - but I’m willing to debate that claim.

PS: A personal anecdote. I lived for a decade off-road/off-grid at Lake Laberge, Yukon. We even called our homestead ‘Strawberry Fields’ because so many wild strawberries grew in the grass/brush lands around us. Yes, we could - and did - make a meal out of the wild strawberries in season. It took the better part of a day to gather sufficient berries for a single meal. That was it until next year.


#61

Life on the planet is SO out of whack. So wrong. We know it.
There ain’t no prayer out there to fix it all anymore :frowning:
Sad, very sad in full truth for all of us! Future gens have to deal, I won’t have to deal with it all LOL but I wish mankind the best :slight_smile: