Carnivore vs Mediterranean keto

(Robin) #21

Gonna jump in, simply to say… I am one of the happy keto members who found that a main benefit was the ability to identify how specific foods affect how I feel. Ironically, if I could choose only only one food group to eat forever (and remain healthy) it would be vegetables. I ADORE those marvelous veggies. But once I had adapted to my keto lifestyle, I found myself having gut issues after I ate any significant amount of them. Since I have diverticulitis, I don’t mess around with food that aggressively disagrees with me. After dumping the veggies, and feeling SO much better, I realized that cheese made me tired and lethargic. I was only able to discern these issues because I had narrowed my daily menu via keto. Now, I am probably going to end up carnivore. All of this is because I feel so much better and am so much healthier. It’s a journey.

So @Arbre, There is nothing to defend. No one is trying to force their opinions or food choices on you. Obviously each of us feels strongly about whatever works for us. But we don’t need to be defensive or try to convince others of their wrong thinking. We are all on the same path to wellness. And we are all here to support each other… and that will usually include sharing what has worked (or not worked) for us.

I hope you can relax and be glad you have found what works for you. And be equally glad for others who are experiencing success… no matter how they eat. I think you’ll find that this is a very friendly group of folks who only get testy when someone tells them they are “wrong”. We’ve all got this!

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #22

THIS! ^^

:+1:

#23

Your personal path to where you are now. That is all it is about :slight_smile:

You on food and where you must take it personally to feel your best :sunny:

It is only all about ourselves in the bitter end of it all and who walks the walk to learn or those who can’t go there now in their journey…so…fab post.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #24

I have looked in wikipedia and other sources, and it says Plinius the Greek said olive oil was great for longevity. In Mediterranean Spain, olive oil has been consumed for more than a millenium. There are olive trees two millenia old.

Of course, olive oil was used also as a lamp fuel. But also for cooking.

I think very unlikely the Mediterranean used butter and lard for cooking in the past. My mother comes from the south of Spain, in a sea coast city, and I still remember when I was a child, I had family with some land and animals. There were almost no cows. Most animals were goats (better adapted to the climate). The Mediterranean is dry, so it makes no sense to have cows, at least if they are “naturally free”. Cows gave some milk, and they were drinking milk. But for sure, butter was almost unknown. In fact, if you had told to my grand-grandmother that one can cook with butter (instead of olive oil) she would have been highly surprised, and she would have said you were joking.

Lard is something that is basically unheard of. In Catalan, the word “llard” exists, and it is the same as the lard in English (a fat from pig). But almost nobody uses it. Nobody buys it, I think. But it is true that some traditional recipes (almost all sweet pastries) are done with “llard”. It is consistent with the fact that the Med has many pigs everywhere.

But cooking with butter: for sure not.

So, I would be very surprised that this society I knew when I was a child, which was really “Mediterranean”, would cook with butter and lard. And this society had been very similar for centuries (with the only big change of the new imports from America, like tomatoes).

So, no, I completely disagree that the Mediterranean used to cook with butter and lard.

And in general, when I speak with Southern French, or Italians, I feel we have a common culture. Especially, when I go to an Italian or Southern French restaurant, and I do not ask the typical dishes, but something they eat but is not famous. Then, almost always, it reminds very strongly to something it is from my culture.

So, yes, there is a Med culture. Maybe the East Med is slightly different, but even though, I find coincidences with the Christian Lebanese and the Greeks in the area, in many respects.

I do not want to attack to anybody! I am just confused because of the importance given to carnivore in this forum. I just wanted to understand.

Note: I have read that the bishop in Perpinyà, in the 19th century, was called “butter-eater” by the normal people. Perpinyà used to be a Catalan city, until the Treaty of the Pyrenées, in which the Spanish King relinquished “North Catalonia” to the French King (Perpinyà was the capital city). In the 19th century, in Perpinyà people still spoke Catalan, and they had Catalan culture. But the French were imposing their institutions. The bishop was, for example, French, not Catalan. So, the normal population in the area were really surprised that a person would eat butter in normal circumstances. And this is not so long ago (19th century).

(Robin) #25

I know you aren’t attacking anyone. I understand your confusion. When I first began, I thought the Carnivores were like elite best of the best. Well, now that I basically am one, I know that can’t be the case, because I falter and learn and falter and learn again. Yes, people can be adamant about their particular path, but for the most part… if you are on this forum and are sincere, you are welcome to do what works for you. There are lots of “opinions” but labels shouldn’t be that important. You do you. You got this!

#26

AND yes coming into this realm or even tiptoeing in and out of an extreme low zc type carb day is showing you where you on the most personal note in life is where you should follow. A person’s journey as it should be thru personal knowledge!

but from me, ZC eater, carnivore, I find this issue of the the elite. the best, the whatever means when one views this eating lifestyle means nothing if the food don’t fit the body, yet somehow it ‘gains more mystery and crazy to it all’ that is not there… LOL Not ever sure where this came from but in maybe one’s own mind thru mis-info about what this plan is all about and what helps us individuals but carnivore is a darn eating plan many need to thrive and flourish and nutritonally sound thru science.

The whole post was strange to me with the ‘we must VS.’ ya know and it is not ever that

and for all ZC’ers out there, we are not some overloads or elites or we don’t boast anything as superior, not ever do we think this :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: but we are at all feeding our lives and telling others how well we are doing.

We feel and changed on what dropping plant matter from our lives gives to us personally, we are not some some that are above and beyond in any way, we are people just eating to alliveate and grow against the issues plants give us in our bodies and when we get the ‘super fab results’ and praise them in our well being somehow we become subject to doubt from others, but bitter end is do you and we all will do us for what we all need. Our daily lives thru changes tells us all we need to understand.

As funny as it sounds our carnivore lifestyle should not be seen as some above and beyond and how dare one thru food not become one of us or crazy thinking like that :slight_smile: But I think it is getting in that priority and it is never that way cause of all us who come here walked all the nutriton walk and what worked for us or against us and landed here as our best life forward.

I don’t ever want someone think my carnivore ways suits all, it won’t ever but if time, life, years of dealing and more brought one here like it did me and stellar results abound, then, cool. But I won’t ever apologize for my lifestyle or play down what it did for me on a personal level… even based on nutritional facts with this plan behind me but I won’t deter me saying it is a great plan for those who walked this way.

yes I am saying RAH RAH ZC!

not for all but for me yes :clown_face:

#27

Of course. I started with vegetarian keto. It wasn’t good enough for me but I am the type who gets benefits when goes very low with carbs and that’s impossible with a significant amount of vegetables or nuts for me…

Too much everything is bad. Fat, protein, water, oxygen… :smiley:
Most of us just can’t eat too much meat even on carnivore… If someone gets triggered and overeat meat for some reason, they probably should do something different…? Not necessarily woe wise, maybe it’s bad timing, eating without any need…

:joy:
So many things are considered good, it doesn’t mean a thing especially that there isn’t a single woe that is good for everyone.

I personally have no problems with vegetables. I believe people who says they cause problems for them, it even makes sense. But I am fine with basically all edible stuff - as long as my carbs aren’t too high. And less is better. That’s why I try to keep it very low, it just almost magically solves my problems…
Anyway, 200g vegetable is so nothing unless it’s raw, I was the type who ate 1000g per veggie dish or something. It caused some problems on keto… Some of us may use things as spice but if they are used as food, they must be much. I can’t do much with 200g veggies or 150g meat/eggs. If it works for you, great, no one should have any problem with that if that floats your boat! (I have zero problems with people eating 100, 200 or 600g carbs either if that works best for them.)

I saw no issues with carnivore in general… But many people doesn’t jump from high-carb into carnivore as far as I know anyway. Elimination is powerful, may be very effective when one has problems and keto and carbier diets just can’t solve them. And if someone found carnivore works great while normal keto doesn’t, of course they get a huge motivation to stick to it…

And… For me, now, eating fatty protein makes the most sense… I do eat plants as spice or fun or I can’t get resist because they are so great occasionally and my body can handle them… But they aren’t as good and they aren’t my proper food, I feel and know it and always feel best on my carnivore-ish woe and it’s the most convenient and tasty woe for me as well (as far as I can tell with my off times). I can’t eat on any other style for long. And I am sure many of us feel so. And others have problems with certain plants. They are just inconvenient and unnecessary to me most of the time. No way I would try to include them in my default woe!

People with autoimmune disease need to avoid a lot of vegetables, it’s quite known… It has nothing to do with plant quality…

No one is forced to restrict their keto (or woe) if they are fine without… Do what works for you. But we aren’t you.

  1. Some people couldn’t care less deliciousness when they suffers from plants horribly…
  2. Meat is wonderfully delicious and adding plants may or may not make it better, it depends. Swapping my beloved veggies to meat was one of my most brilliant steps on my journey to find my best woe. (I kept a few but very few and I don’t need them every day or week. I don’t NEED them at all, per se but they are useful and yeah, give variety. I am big on variety now. Not like meat and eggs couldn’t provide a huge one, mind you.)
  3. Joy from food isn’t even important for everyone… Odd for a food addict hedonist like me (carnivore makes my food addiction healthier, by the way. I still think about food a lot but it starts to feel okay, not unhealthy) but I accepted this fact. I even have times when I just want to get satiated, I still can’t eat bad tasting food but if it’s a bit bland, I am fine with it. I often eat without any appetite and it’s fine (I still can enjoy the taste, I just don’t feel a particular attraction and I only eat because I dislike the feeling of hunger and weakness).
  4. It’s an odd thing but when I still had little meat and my woe felt horribly boring, just stopping eating vegetables made my woe way less boring. It may make no sense at all as my variety lowered but it turned out carbs makes a higher need for variety in my case. Without vegetables my eggs and tiny meat became much more exciting!

People are different and they need and enjoy very different things.

(bulkbiker) #28

Nonsense and outdated… you rely on Longho the vegan too much here.

#29

I like to learn about other places and times (but I don’t go out of my way to search for such things) so it was an interesting read to me :slight_smile:
I am a Hungarian, we totally used lard for everything, even sweet pastries (they are still have some popularity but I never liked them). Olive oil was quite unknown until modern times but it’s still not used much. I hate the flavor myself (store bought lard is horrible too but from a good pig farm? wonderful).
In the last several decades, most people swapped lard to seed oil (sunflower, exclusively, rapeseed oil is used only in food industry, the shops have sunflower oil and that’s it. we have huge sunflower fields everywhere, they are pretty) but no force can remove fatty pork from most people’s diet (meat often isn’t even included, just the fat, I never went that far - I like at least 3% protein in my fatty pork, thank you very much :smiley: and that’s in tiny amounts and takes a special preparation - but Mom loved eating solid pork fat). So lard is still firmly here.
The fad “mediterrean” diet is popular in women’s magazine but normal people who aren’t even young women trying to become/stay slim rarely eats like that as far as I know.
Keto is quite unknown in this country. Probably a high percentage of the population have already heard about it but I saw no keto items yet (if we don’t count some totally carby oatmeal packet… it has the word keto on it because the tiny packet was below 20-25g carbs…).
We had a paleo hype here, I don’t know if it still lasts but I order from paleo web shops (not primarily for me, for the sugar hating seed oil avoiding high-carber in the family) so I guess so.

(Robin) #30

Agree! And I hope you know I called carnivores Overlords because I viewed them as the ultimate goal… for me. Never dreaming I would end up there naturally. AND… it is making me cook! Or at least roast. My husband thanks you.

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(Robin) #31

@Arbre Re:”I am just confused because of the importance given to carnivore in this forum.”
I think people like me who want to try being carnivore “look up to them”. But I don’t think they are viewed as better by anyone. I have not been on other keto forums…. So maybe most don’t include carnivores…? I dunno. But I think the majority of keto folks are quite happy where they are and keto works for them, so there is no reason to go carnivore. I only headed into carnivore after eliminating so many foods (for health reasons). So far, it feels like a good fit. For me. And I am a relative newbie… still learning, so I certainly don’t feel important or better than anyone on here!

#32

Hi Arbre, adding to the range of views to say I eat vegetables every day and some berries too. Also lots of meat, dairy, eggs, olive oil, nuts and the occasional legume (and far more keto desserts and processed snacks than I should, but there is a separate thread for that).

My perception from reading the forums is that most people here who are carnivore either (a) don’t mind vegetables, but do not like the physical side effects produced in their bodies by eating them; or (b) don’t much like vegetables, and have discovered they can maintain good wellbeing without them anyway. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone who likes vegetables, has no ill effects from eating them, and yet abstains just as a matter of principle. It seems to be more based on lived experience.

There’s quite a few veggie eaters around here, and some who even grow their own. I love everything about vegetables: the taste, the colour, the texture and the interest and variety they add to my cooking. Happily, they also make me feel good when I eat them. But I know there’s many people who have all kinds of digestive pain and other discomfort. Perhaps this is relatively uncommon statistically, I don’t know; but I guess by its nature this is kind of a niche forum which attracts people given to slightly weird WOE, so this bias in the sample should not surprise you :laughing:

If I recall correctly one of the principles of a successful Mediterranean diet is to enjoy your food and the rituals and social connections that surround food culture. That always seemed to me a wonderful thing.

#33

I can imagine such a thing, they may be viewed nice but totally unneeded things but indeed, I doubt it’s common. Even I am not like that as 1. I do eat a tiny amount of vegetables 2. I feel better at lower-carb and vegetables are very carby, I never could go way below 40g net carbs while eating them 3. I lost interest in most. That definitely helped :smiley: And of course the point 2 helps a lot, why would I abstain if there isn’t any reason for it - except that just because something is okay and tasty, I don’t need to eat it. I was a vegetarian while I had zero problems with meat and my favorite item was some good fatty pork, nothing I ate was as tasty as that… And I felt no problem with it as I had good enough food anyway (and I had my principles and goals. I still have most of them but my decisions are still different).
And I abstained from things here and there purely out of doinjg something more clean. It is useful sometimes. But I am a hedonist and I tend to add back harmless things, labels be damned :wink: No, I didn’t do it for labels, it’s just safer to do things more clean instead of stepping on a slippery slope. But the stuff must be present for it. I won’t go out of my way to eat something I find tasty and my body is fine with it if it’s not needed. As long as I am fine with eggs and meat, I don’t just add things, I enjoy simplicity. I have ZERO problem with walnuts and I adore them, it’s one of the tastiest thing in existence and we have them now. But I am fine without… For a while, at least. They won’t even getting close to tempting me in my dedicated carni months (November, January). If it is longer, I start to think that WHY would I keep myself from it…? Just out of principle? I do carnivore-ish only anyway as default, not pure carnivore, what could some more extra hurt (and that’s the slippery slope thinking I should get rid of, actually…). But as time passes, more and more items loses its pull. Even if I could eat them, even if I like their taste, I just don’t feel the need at all. it’s simpler and better to stick to my normal food. If I go off, I always start to long to a stricter woe again… That works best. But I don’t need to stick to it all the time to feel as good as I can, it seems. (Though, why risk it unless I am tempted - I can’t and don’t want to resist temptation so that’s it then, I eat the thing, I accepted this long ago. I can train myself though. The more carnivore days I do, the less power things have on me - except maybe meat, it would be almost impossible for me to live without it as what else could I eat, only eggs don’t work. It’s freedom and very enjoyable! Way more than eating some inferior tasting plant, good meat wins the taste competition every time. Except in the case of the best fruits. The other stuff is just… Different and is there… But not a loss not to eat it if I can pull it off.)

Maybe it helps people understand how some of us work. I argued about my food choices with people who seemingly had no idea how someone like me feels. The biggest incompatibility was with people who considered food ONLY fuel, they often considers food hedonism horribly wrong, someone tried to make me abandon this :smiley: I couldn’t do that if I tried, my hedonist inner self runs the whole show that is me, others help it, sure but it’s the main one. Whatever I do, I always ask what maximizes joy… It can’t just turned off… Health is still more important and some principles too but they very rarely interferes, my food enjoyment isn’t in any danger if I stick to the food best for my body (and a little extra that can’t hurt, sometimes ;)).

Oh and challenges are fun too, I often try to live without something I very much love and feel okay but yep, for a hedonist like me those restrictions can’t hold, it’s just for a short while. And when we do these challenges, normally we want something from it, it’s not just for the sake of challenge though surely such cases exist…

I am SO very happy I can still enjoy all the zillion fruits I have in my garden, even without eating them. Eating is problematic as modern fruits are way too sweet for my body, I am most sensitive to quick sugars especially eating alone. Even a little fruit may feel not so great but it varies greatly and some sausage aftercare helps… But I have the trees, I visit them often and watch how the fruits progress, I can smell, I can look… It’s quince season now, well that fruit smells wonderful! :smiley: I cut up several yesterday and today too. Okay it’s easy not to eat quince as it’s so hard raw and only my SO likes them that way. and I totally forgot about our last grapes but they are like honey, tasty but borderline impossible to eat. But I eat less and less fruit anyway, since years, it started way before I went close to carnivore but I totally lost the need for them afterwards. I couldn’t not eat fruits on my original keto every day…
Sigh. If I start to talk about fruits, it’s hard to stop… I so, so so adore them!!! :smiley: Lovely things. In their overly sugary way. And half-ripe ones don’t have the flavors, not only some sugar is missing… Oh well.
So I still enjoy the hell out of my very thorough fruit garden (my soil is too poor for vegetables though I have several tomatoes per year. It’s one of my surviving vegetable, I mean, I still eat them occasionally as they goes great with eggs and meat, some egg/meat dishes requires it just like onions. We have some opened jar so today’s rabbit stew will have some tomato as well, it’s common in stews though we rarely do that style except in the case of egg stews. Those two vegetables became occasional flavorings. But if I am not bored with my roasts at the moment, I don’t eat them as they aren’t needed, no matter how extremely delicious they are (and sweet so I need to enjoy them until I can. I already can’t eat sweeter tomatoes or use more than a little onion in a big dish, sweet capsicum is out too - capsicum is my vegetable number 3 as it’s CRUNCHY and I am so much intro crunchiness. I only eat the crunchy kind with very little taste, raw as it’s all about crunchiness and juiciness, not the taste. but if my SO didn’t buy them, I wouldn’t either, it’s not that important. just nice and why not to take a slice occasionally? as time passes, I find the idea less and less tempting anyway. I am fine with natural progression of things, I only train myself regarding the problematic things, not some innocent tiny extra).

Another food joy that remained in my life is cooking and baking. I live with a high-carber with a huge sweet tooth (he eats dessert about 20 times a week? it’s a perfect breakfast for him. it’s good he makes most of those, I so wouldn’t :D) so I can enjoy making various kinds of food. It’s a double-edged sword for a food addicted hedonist who half-lived on sweets for decades but it’s training - and if I don’t want to eat cake, I don’t make cake I like, fortunately he enjoys the ones I got bored with. And I got bored of cakes on keto years ago, I ate them all the time as I saw no better option… And I still am not into them at all. I just like to experiment and make new recipes. Too bad it involves tasting the result so I do it rarely. The old recipes are fine, I don’t ever need to taste those.

Social things has nothing to do with food as far as I can tell for myself (I am a hermit and have my own opinion about things anyway, I don’t just accept things so I probably see these differently? and we have different cultures too. or different circumstances. hospitality is huge in my country but I was lucky with my relatives, they rarely tried to push, I ate whatever I wanted, most of the time. that’s not the best when one doesn’t know what is best for them but can be tempted with almost anything but I am better now). I can talk and even cook with people without eating differently than how I want… Pressure has no chance, temptation is more serious but if I am determined, it’s easy. At least with my rare access to people and their food, it must be harder every day but well, I live with a high-carber and I am at home almost all the time, hours in the kitchen, I think about food almost all the time… It’s probably not considered the easiest circumstance but it actually is still very easy. I don’t make tempting carby food and as time passes, it’s a wider and wider range… But my SO isn’t choosy so I feed him lots of low-carb and even some carnivore food… What he adds to it is his business. Usually I can get away with feeding him some meat too…
It’s very interesting to watch how our eating changes with time.

So… There is plenty to enjoy even if someone do carnivore - but actually, after all my food addiction times and some struggles after drastic woe changes… It’s soooo nice when I lose interest in food and only really focus on it once a day for a little while. Food shouldn’t be our number one joy and interest all the time… It’s no big deal if it’s just a quick (but not too quick) refuel for a while, we don’t necessarily lose much… Or any.

#34

The absolute best plan, Keto Plan vs. Carnivore…ta da…

neither

It is the plan that suits your personal lifestyle to a T. When one finds that you run with it :slight_smile:

Carnivore on this forum was small when I started a few years ago. Few zero carb’ers not chatting too much but I came on and hooked up with them and we chatted alot and then Cheryl started a Carnivore Challenge and some Keto plan people wanted to try and next thing ya know, we got an active wonderful group of carnivores on this site.

But the amt. of Keto people on this forum is huge and they chat a ton also so I don’t think this is carnivore heavy on this forum. Our few posts in our few threads are just very active, cause we love to chat about our meals, our experiences with overall health improvements and at this point, heck we all support and care about each other cause darn, we are cyber friends now :slight_smile:

Don’t put Keto against Carnivore as it is some kind of lame competition. If a Keto Plan person wants to eat more heavy protein in their plan, very cool. If they want to focus on eating more veg, then cool. But us carnivores came into our plan to experience new changes and a different approach that suit us and our bodies require this…so there is no ‘VS’ at all in any of this.

There are wonderful concepts and reasoning and science behind a Keto Plan and there is the exact same thing behind a Zero Carb Plan. It is only about where that individual needs to be that makes a plan stand out for them and great results happen.

This is a cool forum. Not a doubt about that.

#35

The OP clearly had no idea that one of the key tenets of carnivore is the FACT that plants have anti-nutrients! It pays to do a little of your own research before starting such a thread.

(Edith) #36

The carnivore people have their own sub threads. They just tend the be a very active, chatty bunch and post a lot. :laughing:

I’m curious though… What led you to keto? If you are here because of being over weight or for some other health problem, was your traditional Spanish Mediterranean diet working for you? Or have you actually switched to a keto Mediterranean keto diet and now you are feeling much better?

Many of us on the forum are from the US. Seafood is quite expensive here. More expensive than almost all other meats. I believe that plays a big part in why we don’t tend to eat as much seafood here.

#37

Yes I agree.
There is not ‘fresh off the boat’ and cheaper prices around my area. I pay all the middlemen to get any type of all fish and seafood to me from the ocean so? yea it is pricey for sure…I can get a big beef roast cheaper than a lb. of crab legs. I can eat that whole roast I pay for, the crab I am throwing out those shells and can’t eat I paid for :slight_smile:

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #38

Well, the Mediterranean diet also has wheat and rice. I think the reason is that before, people were physically active all the time, and they were using wheat as energy to burn. Also, they were poor, so they were not eating much in absolute terms.

For me, Mediterranean keto works well, since it is Mediterranean food without wheat and rice, basically.

Seafood is a bit more expensive than other types of food. But at least here, beef is also expensive. Fish tends to be relatively well priced, though, especially if you know what to buy. And there is a wide array of fish products in my area.

(Robin) #39

So well said!

(Robin) #40

@Arbre I’m trying to figure out why you are still trying to debate each answer your post has received… they have ALL said the only preferred plan is the one that suits the individual.

So, I went back to your original post and the actual question…

“there a particular reason for such a strong preference for carnivore, as opposed to a “Mediterranean keto”?

I think this has been answered many times over. There is only PERSONAL preference. No one here is trying to talk you out of yours. Please accept our responses in the spirit they are meant and continue on your preferred path. You got this!