Carnivore Muscle Experiment Goes...High Carb? Natural Bodybuilding

(Chris) #1

Hi guys. I realize where I am, but I hope that because of the time we’ve spent as friends, you’d care to follow as I continue to experiment. My health is in a good place right now, and I am looking to move forward with another career, bodybuilding. I hope this is okay to post, among friends, because I know some of you do care and I also care about you all, and what you think.

Once more, continued from: Dread's Carnivore Muscle Thread

Since I’m not really following keto or carnivore at the moment… Wait, that’s not exactly true. I am still keeping some of the concepts alive. I hit my 2 year Carniversary last July (2019). Since then I have slowly allowed myself to live a little bit- in moderation. I also gained some weight while doing high fat high calorie carnivore last spring and into fall, so I have been somewhat dieting for a few months now, at least since November or so. Actually it may be sooner than that, I’d have to troll back through my cronometer.

The holidays in 2019 brought with them singular cheat meals, not all of them enjoyed, in fact, some reassured some of my dietary nitpicks, so the outcome of that was relaxed and positive. I have had a loose goal all of last year to compete in natural bodybuilding in the next few years.

Now we get to the point. Why the hell are you dieting like this, Dread?

After all, I won’t be competing for probably 2 years right now.

I’m doing this so I know I can, really. I’d like to get shredded for summer, get the six pack exposed, see how bad my loose skin and stretch marks are when my bodyfat gets to 9% or so. This will give me a real indicator of where I might stack up, I think.

Once I’m satisfied, hopefully by summer if plans go right, I’ll ramp back up to maintenance, hold it there for a month or so with high carbs, moderate fat, and protein to 1g/lb. Once I start really feeling good, I will begin to ramp up the carbs for a slow massing phase that should hopefully span 12 to 18 months, and it’s my plan you guys will see some seriously explosive growth at that point!

Protein and fat sources are animal based - which includes dairy, which means whey isolate. You must accept this.

Carb sources are mostly plant-based. The reason this is in line with carnivore principles is because I’m specifically targeting foods for their digestibility, energy balance, lack of most antinutrients (including fiber, that’s a fucking antinutrient).

That said - here is my food list.

  1. Aldi 90/10 Ground Beef
  2. Optimum Nutrition Performance Whey Isolate (costco)
  3. White Rice or Jasmine Rice
  4. Raw Honey
  5. Rarely Kerrygold
  6. Rarely Kirkland Butter Croissant (no shitty plant oils used, high saturated fat, high starch, perfect refeed food)
  7. Extremely Rarely fun desserts like cookies or ice cream. But seriously this is so little as to be negligible.

Most of my updates come from Instagram, I’m currently @carnivoremuscle over there, should be easy to find.

I also put up periodic posts on my blog, carnivoremuscle.com. I’m not much of a writer, and I don’t really prioritize the site too much, but I have it. I just posted a workout program up there the other day for folks interested. Includes 5 weeks of accumulation and a testing week, and covers a 6 day push/pull/legs split.

(Chris) #2

[Reserved - photos and stuff]

(Edith) #3

Are you worried that even having some rare treats could turn into once-in-a-while treats to more frequent treats to I-fell-off-the-wagon treats?

Also, why not potatoes, sweet potatoes, or squash instead of croissants and rice which have very little nutritional value?

(Chris) #4

No. I’m 200% focused at this point. Not only that, but I’ve allowed such a massive margin of error that I could binge for a week and still most likely come back at the same weight.

I don’t mind throwing in a potato here and there. But honestly the primary principle I kept from carnivore is that I get my nutrition from meat. Rice is also easier for me to digest and eat. Outside of this current phase of course, which is a PSMF and shouldn’t be counted in the same sense, because it’s not for health.

And lastly I speculate that micronutrients, to a point, are far less important than proper energy calories, when one is eating the right foods (ANIMALS!). Certainly you could argue that by eating so much carbs perhaps I may cause a vitamin C deficiency or it could hinder me in other ways. I have taken that into account and it’s something I keep an eye on. Anything with seed oils or soy, which includes most breads, will inflame my eczema almost immediately. I don’t do vegetables. At all. You put that fork in my face expect it in your eye with the kale still intact.

(Windmill Tilter) #5

From you what you’ve described in other posts it sounds like you’re doing a custom cyclic ketogenic diet with full week cycles, alternating weeks of 0 Carb PSMF, Mod Carb, and high carb. One out three ain’t bad. I’d say it counts. :yum:

I’m interested to see how the experiment works out; it sounds like you’ve done your homework. Dropping to 9% ain’t easy so I think there’s value in seeing how that’s done in practice. It’s a hell of a lot different than dropping from 30% to 25% for sure.

Lol. Never thought I’d see you use write those two words in that combination. I don’t think many folks would be particularly bothered by high carbs, but you should insert a “trigger warning” before using the phrase “plant-based”. That vegan tag-line set’s people off like a goddamn dog whistle around here. Maybe just say “from plants”. ROFL :sweat_smile::rofl::joy:

Keep us posted!

(Chris) #6

Hahaha that’s a fair point. I should also be careful when referring to plants as food. (joke but uh, no joke)

(Bob M) #7

I didn’t know Kirkland made good croissants. After reading about the croissant diet at Fire in a Bottle, I’m trying a higher saturated fat diet for myself and my kids.

Yesterday, for instance, I did a body weight workout and then HIIT, and when I ate sometime afterwards, I ate a high saturated fat serving of mashed potatoes. I was still in ketosis yesterday and today (my ketones are always low, but they were 0.4 in the afternoon yesterday and 0.2 this morning, which are normal values for me). The high saturated fat mashed potatoes used butter oil, which is basically ghee with stearic acid added to it.

I don’t hope for what your goals are (I have too many injuries), but I would like a bit more muscle mass (as long as I don’t provoke any of my injuries).

Good luck with your testing!

(Chris) #8

Yup. The Kirkland croissants are absolute fire, and you seem to smell exactly what I am stepping in with these! Little bit of fire added to the bottle here and there (also delicious).

(Erin Macfarland ) #9

@Dread1840 sounds pretty well formulated and strategic! You obviously are not a novice when it comes to nutrition so I’m sure you’ll see great results ! IMO six packs are overrated, unless you’re talking about beer, and then a twelve pack is the way to go…lololololol, I do love beer- I’m from Colorado and definitely enjoy having it occasionally :grimacing: But the whole shredded six pack abs/vascular look on a dude is kinda scary at a certain point, and I say that as a personal trainer knowing how extreme some body builders can get trying to compete. Your approach is very measured and healthy and I hope you take care of yourself physically and mentally through that process. Bodybuilding can really mess with your head, I’ve seen it happen a lot, and the deleterious effects aren’t always as easily recognized in men because as a culture we are somehow blinded to the fact that men can suffer from disordered eating and/or body dis morphia just as much as women. (Not saying you are or that you will only that I think we do a disservice to men in not being more aware of the tendency for this to happen.) Your dietary staples are in line with the foods recommended by Brad over at Fire in a Bottle. I’m pretty fascinated by his theories currently as he talks about ROS and the role of long chain fatty acids in shutting down insulin signaling. The combo of starch (ideally the types you list, such as croissants and white rice, that are devoid of fiber) and a source of long chain fatty acid high in stearic acid (butter, tallow, cocoa butter) has the effect on creating localized IR…which leads to keeping fat circulating as energy rather than cells switching to glucose…kind of cool! Anyway, maybe check out that blog if you haven’t already. Looking forward to hearing about your progress- I think the foods you list sound pretty delicious and I would happily eat those for the rest of my life, if I ate carbs! Buttered white rice is maybe my favorite food…so at least you’re not going to be choking down chicken breast and broccoli :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

(Chris) #10

Oh yes, I’m glad you brought that up. I am so keenly dialed in on mental health. Myself and my wife have had our own issues, not necessarily related to diet, in regards to mental health, that we each had and have to deal with. And I have already had some signs that I’ve had to recognize and deal with. This morning I took a selfie all pumped up from a sick workout and I looked so small I wanted to cry - whereas last night before I got in a shower, I hit an offset front double bicep that had me similarly wanting to cry (but for joy cause damn boii).

I can smell hot sauce. And it makes my mouth water for my boss’s turkey meatballs. Bro I eat turkey on Thanksgiving. Weak bird. Nonetheless, I look around, I smell things - it’s similar to the feelings I sense while fasting, except just a little harder because I’m sipping on thin, slightly sweet shakes here and there, so I’ll get cravings. I had to schedule a cheat day to eat lunch with my dad last week during the workday (he’s a dinner OMADder and I never eat out anymore, but we work in the same city about 10 minutes apart). hat’s not entirely “normal” behavior, but I am being so very strict that right now I’m trying to make tiny exceptions just to not drive the people around me completely nuts. My wife is a saint. I keep coming back and apologizing for a short response or this or that other tiny thing and she just brushes it off, completely understanding. <3

I did chicken for a week at the beginning, it wasn’t terrible. I soaked it in salt and garlic powder and pan fried it so it was tolerable lol. But chickens are also a weak bird and they also don’t eat very well most of the time, at least I doubt the places I sourced were, so the lean beef made much more sense despite missing out on the fat. Broccoli is a distant memory!

(Katie) #11

Sounds interesting. I have already been following you on Instagram for a while.

I am a little confused, are you adding carbohydrates to gain or lose wait, currently?

(Chris) #12

I’m using carbs for energy, actually. Right now during the cut just to have a little diet break on the weekends and refuel. But once I approach the point where I’m ready to start adding mass again I’ll be using rice to regulate my calories because I want to see how I actually perform in the gym on higher carbs all the time, I’m not sure I’ve ever dieted “correctly” before keto anyway. The Virta studies were done on runners, and that stuff gets cited all the time at me. I don’t find it useful at all for my sport and the majority of the science says the opposite in the field, for now. I just want to explore that fully to make sure I’m not being a dogmatic person, and to really push the limits of what I can do with carbs as a tool.

(Chris) #13

Back, rear delts, biceps day :muscle:

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(Chris) #14

Chest, delts, triceps

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(Chris) #15

Update: Almost seeing abs this morning while applying my deodorant after training!

(Chris) #16

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(Edith) #17

What are you noticing that’s different with your carb experiment?

(Chris) #18

Tons more endurance in the context of lifting, and despite leaning out even more than I did with fasting and keto/carnivore before, I’m also growing significantly. I’m in a pretty large weekly average deficit and despite its own drawbacks so far I’m happier than I’ve been with how things are turning out. :slight_smile:

Here’s a new back shot from this morning:

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(Edith) #19

Interesting. Thanks for the update.

About how many carbs per day do you think you are eating?

(Chris) #20

65g during the week, 2-400 on refeed days. :grin: