Carnivore after 3 weeks, getting worse. Need help

(Randy Ward) #1

Hi, I was hoping to get some feedback. I’m 51 yo male. I have some health issues like Mitochondrial Myopathy, Muscle Dystonia, diverticulitis. I’m about 2 weeks in. I keep reading about how people get through their keto flu by the 2nd week. But for me, I’m just not seeing it. I’m trying to figure out if what I’m dealing with is normal or is a sign that I shouldn’t be on this diet.

A couple weeks ago I was at the end of my rope. I have had burning pain down the outside of both thighs along with some peripheral neuropathy in my toes and fingers. I’ve been dealing with massive bloating that triggers arrhythmia along with constant dizziness, brain fog, and inflammation through out my body. I couldn’t sleep and every sleepless night was making my health problems worse.

I came across the carnivore diet and spent a whole day absorbing all the info and testimony that I could about how it has helped people with autoimmune issues and digestive issues. I began the diet the next day. That 1st night after eating a full day of carnivore I slept better than I had in 2 months. By day 3 my bloating was all but gone. By day 4 my body began feeling like my brain and cells were starving for energy. I would get the shakes, headaches, weakness, extreme dizziness (boarder line vertigo) and I couldn’t sleep again. But every few days, I’d have a decent day and sleep well.

I keep telling myself I just need to get through the keto flu period and little by little I will start feeling better as I become fat adapted. But after two weeks I wake up and I’m shaky, weak, can’t focus, brain fog, my heart races, my pulsitile tinnitus is worse, My bloating came back slightly but is still much better. While my outer thighs and neuropathy is less painful, it is still an issue. I noticed that when I blow my nose, there is almost always blood clots in my right nostril.

I’ve tried using more salt, less salt, electrolyte powders. I’ve increased fat ratio, decreased fat ratio. Too much fat causes nausea.

It is so hard to figure out what the parameters are for how I should feel at this point in carnivore diet. So many people say they didn’t even really get the keto flu and some say it is serious stuff but it’s gone after 3-10 days. I’m really struggling and I am getting some benefits but I’m worried that my body will not adapt to this diet because of my genetic health issues. Any advice would help.

Thanks

(Robin) #2

Glad you’re here. Others with more knowledge will chime in soon, so hang on.
I am only about 8 months into carnivore, but I began with keto.

I eliminated foods one at a time so,I was able to know exactly which foods were causing my issues.
For instance, veggies caused my diverticulitis which is now under control, no issues… too much cheese causes inflammation of joints and lethargy.

This approach takes patience. You need to go long enough with one change to be certain of the effects. When I totally gave up veggies, it was a natural transition to carnivore. No keto flu ever.

Since you have very specific medical issues, it might be wise to start with a more gradual process like that. You can more readily identify what’s working and not.

Best of luck. hang in there. No matter how you go about it, you will need patience. It’s a process you need to trust. You’ll get more and probably better feedback from others.

(Joey) #3

@Randy_Ward First, welcome to the forum. It’s a great place to connect with folks with similar circumstances and solutions.

To be candid though, you may have a harder time finding others with the specific combination of health challenges you’ve described, and so it may be more challenging to match up potential solutions to explore based on the experience of others.

From what I’ve heard and read from reliable sources, while carnivore can be an excellent solution for many health issues, it often represents a significant (and therefore challenging) dietary shift to make from a more standard western diet all in one fell swoop. In such circumstances, it demands a lot of digestive, hormonal and metabolic shifts all at once for some folks.

One of the key reasons for this is the need to allow for an adequate period of fat adaptation - specifically so mitochondria can develop the capacity for utilizing ketones/fats instead of glucose.

Given your mitochondrial myopathy condition, this may be asking more of your metabolic system than your body can deliver given such a sudden change.

Have you considered restricting carbs more gradually at first? E.g., cutting out all refined carbs but continuing to work your way toward a meat/dairy/veggie menu for a period of several months? (All the while keeping yourself properly hydrated and maintain your electrolytes.)

Then, hopefully with the benefit of a more comfortable transition point, assuming you still want to go full carnivore, you can take it from that more stable and robust starting point?

Many folks who have been extremely pleased with their carnivore WOE have reported that it wasn’t an easy transition at first. For some, no problem. For others, it took a longer period of adjustment than anticipated.

Hopefully others with more direct experience can chime in and be of some help.

Keep us posted on how things are developing for you! :vulcan_salute:

[EDIT: Looks like @robintemplin said much the same thing above!]

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #4

The first thing to try is to raise your salt intake and drink to thirst. If that doesn’t relieve the symptoms of the “keto flu,” then there is some other problem going on, one that probably needs medical attention. Ignore all governmental recommendations regarding salt intake. The U.S. guideline is low enough to be borderline fatal. New research suggests that sodium in the range of 4-6 grams/day—10-15 grams of sodium chloride—is the healthiest range, even for people with high blood pressure.

A ketogenic diet is not likely to solve all your problems, please note. It will restore your metabolic flexibility, allow your mitochondria to heal (a high-carbohydrate diet does a lot of damage from advanced glycation end-products), and probably reverse your bowel problems. You may find fibre a problem, or you may find it helps; you’ll have to experiment to see what works best for you. Your diverticula won’t likely go away (mine haven’t), but a ketogenic diet should prevent them from causing you trouble.

The neuropathy should improve at least somewhat, since it is probably the result of insulin-resistance in the nervous tissue, and ketones nourish nerve cells by means of a different metabolic pathway from that used to metabolise glucose. Higher cholesterol may also help, since cholesterol is essential to the proper transmission of nerve signals.

You might find it more feasible to start by eating ketogenically till you reach fat-adaptation (about six to eight weeks, but sometimes longer), before even considering a carnivore diet. Going straight from the standard American diet to carnivore is a major adaptation, and it’s not surprising you ran into problems. Most likely because you weren’t yet fat-adapted. Fat-adaptation involves the healing of mitochondria and the re-activation of other cellular pathways involved in fatty-acid metabolism. Until you reach full fat-adaptation, you are likely to feel weak and lethargic. This is perfectly normal, and will pass.

Once you are fat-adapted, you will still have to adapt to a carnivore diet, but that adaptation will be less strenuous than going straight to carnivore from the SAD.

You may be someone who needs relatively more protein than fat. Remember that fat is not some mystical keto substance; it is merely the macronutrient that stimulates the least amount of insulin secretion (just enough to maintain life). On a ketogenic diet, it serves to replace carbohydrate as the energy source, since it yields a bit more ATP per gram and at the cost of less glycation and oxidation. Lowered insulin also restores the body’s endogenous defences against oxidation, rendering exogenous sources, such as vitamin C, much less necessary.

Lastly, don’t try to fast or to cut calories at this point. Give your body what it asks for, even if at first it seems excessive. At some point, unless you have a hormonal problem, your appetite and satiety hormones will start to regulate your appetite to a level that gives the body all it needs, but not too much. We find that the body’s hormnal response to food is much more important than the calorie count. So long as we do not eat foods that put our body into fat-storage mode, the calories pretty much take care of themselves. Intentional calorie-restriction can be self-defeating.

The essentials of ketogenic eating are (1) minimise carbohydrate, (2) make protein a priority, and (3) add fat to satiety. The rest is all in the nature of tweaking this basic paradigm.

#5

This stuff is biochemistry not magic. Keto - and specifically in your case carnivore - is a process of metabolic normalization. The extent and severity of the damage determines how long it takes to fix it. You’ve got a number of serious issues you’re aware of, and I suspect many more you’re not aware of yet. They are not going away quickly.

It seems that lot of folks on this forum - whom I think misguided - recommend upping carb intake to deal with various induction and later issues. I consider this the equivalent of telling an alcoholic suffering from withdrawal symtoms to have a couple of drinks each day to alleviate them. Eating the stuff that caused the problems is not going to solve them.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #6

Well put!

(Marianne) #7

Maybe consider doing keto until you are fat adapted and have some time under your belt. If you do, just keep the total carbs under 20g/day.

My first thought is maybe you aren’t eating enough in general, and enough fat in particular. In your first weeks, I’d recommend eating three meals a day (even if you have never done so before), don’t count calories, and meet or exceed your fat macro ever day. That is not difficult to do if you like rich food. Give your body time to adjust to this new way of eating metabolically and begin the healing. If you are fueling your body sufficiently, I think you will sleep better and feel better overall. Keto will get rid of your inflammation and regulate your insulin as well as carnivore. I’d put carnivore on the back burner until a future date.

Good luck.

(Alec) #8

My thoughts:

  1. You are doing just great, and you shouldn’t be so hard on yourself (or carnivore).
  2. 2 weeks is not long enough to allow things to settle down. Give it a minimum of 8-10 weeks, then re-appraise.
  3. Your symptoms sound like classic keto flu to me. You are suffering from carb withdrawal. It’s unpleasant, but be aware that carb withdrawal can be similar to withdrawal from other abuse substances both legal and illegal. It’s easy to say, but please just work through it and stay the course.
  4. It sounds that you already have some serious benefits from eating carnivore…. Focus on that. As others have said, this is not a miracle cure, and some benefits will take some time.

Stick with it. Good luck!
Cheers
Alec

(Rebecca ) #9

Welcome. I can’t really offer advice on Carnivore, since I eat Ketogenic. My thought was maybe start with Ketogenic first then let your body naturally decide when to go full Carnivore.

#10

I agree with Alec on his post.

Being on prescript meds for your condition? we don’t understand or severity of your medical condition etc…I would say your adaption will take longer. Only because your body is trying to heal and repair and I truly can’t say your walk will be a ‘normal adaption’ walk into carnivore.

but you said a key item here, you already got some benefits in the 2 wks you have been doing this. that shows a right path but your might have a very rocky path ahead of you still.

Your body is detoxing now, so those toxins it is releasing could easily be throwing you a terrible curve in your adaption time. It could be ramping up every adaption issue even tougher. One thing is relax and take it very easy thru this beginning of carnivore. Rest alot if you can. Eat very very well, do not skimp ever on your food intake! Do not push yourself in any way. Be sure to keep up your salt intake and be sure to drink plenty of water.

Sending you good vibes on hoping things settle down for you fast but this is going to be a very wild ride and very personal adaption into carnivore for you.

(Mark Rhodes) #11

i read you mentioned an arrhythmia. Whether or not that comes with a tachycardia you didn’t mention but often heart palpitations become WORSE. This is usually because of an electrolyte imbalance, in particular as @PaulL said, salt. I personally favor Real Salt by Redmond but do use a variety of sea salts as well. Make sure to take a broad spectrum magnesium for the next 6 weeks or so. If it does not include orotate find some separately. This is a dandylist of the types of magnesium.

As to potassium Megan Ramos convinced me that very few people have hypokalemia or low potassium. I continue to add potassium drops during an extended fast but never on a regular day.

@gingersmommy is on spot suggesting keto for the interim. But if you do stay away from the alternative sweeteners as they can be quite inflammatory in my wife’s experience.

YES YES YES. I’m 6 years into keto, 6 months into carnivore. Still uncovering issues and solving problems. We went carnivore to address my wife’s autoimmune issues.

(Randy Ward) #12

Thank you everyone for your feedback and words of encouragement.

I wanted to provide a little more info. I see a lot of people saying I went too fast and perhaps stepping back into low carb or regular keto would be best. Last year around this time I began exercising and cutting back carbs. By summer I had lost nearly 40 lbs and was walking 7-10 miles a day. I still had a lot of body aches (especially back) and some inflammation. While my diet wasn’t full on keto, I was probably as close to keto as I could be without actually being in keto. I was intermittent fasting about 4-5 days a week. I was eating very clean.

Then I went on vacation with my family and ate vacation food for a week. When I came back my bloating and inflammation was so bad that I I was having massive arrhythmia (Gastric cardiac syndrome even though cardiologist wouldn’t believe me). The bloating and inflammation got worse towards the end of my daily fasts(later found out that magnesium helped with the arrhythmia). I had to stop fasting, I couldn’t exercise anymore, And of course my weight loss stopped. Then my doctor wants me to see dietician (what a mistake) and they had me eat a 1:1:1 diet. I was desperate to stop the bloating and heart issues so I did that. That put me back to eating equal portions of carbs, fat, and protein and limited calories. No weight loss, no resolve of my issues. Things just kept getting worse and worse during winter. Gained about 15 lbs back.

Then about two months ago, I started getting burning pain in my hips and thighs (both of them at the same time). Also started noticing pain in finger tips and some of my toes. My sleep suffered tremendously. I would spend each night in hell as I turned from one position to another every 15 min trying to find a spot where the pain would be less so I could sleep. Without sleep my mitocondrial and muscle dystonia and other health issues get really bad. I was fighting off vertigo every day and in so much anxiety and exhaustion that I couldn’t function. I couldn’t take naps during the day because of the pain when laying down. If I didn’t have kids, I would have been damn near suicidal.

Then something popped up on my youtube feed about Jordan Petersen’s daughter and himself and how this diet helped with inflammation, autoimmune issues and much more. I spent the whole day binge watching and researching the carnivore diet and came across a lot of other stories of how it helped them. I was desperate and decided I would jump in the very next day. I needed to get to a place in my life where I could sleep again as soon as possible and if that meant the anti inflammation benefits of the diet or just significant weight loss, then I needed to do and do it yesterday.

This is one of the reasons I didn’t ‘ease’ into the diet. I was in do or die mode (and still am). I need something to change and I need it as fast as possible or I’m not going to make it longer. So my mind set is unwavering. I have no cravings outside of the diet. When I started the carnivore diet I was already doing intermittent fasting (but not keto or low carb) for a couple weeks and just rolled that into the carnivore diet.

And when I started the carnivore diet I did notice some benefits early on. Most of my bloating disappeared, and the burning in my thighs lessened as did the pain in toes and fingers. I lost 4 lbs the first week (water weight I assume), 1 lb in the second week ( was disappointed with only 1 lb). But my pain in my hips and thighs have come back a bit as well as the bloating. I don’t understand this as I thought they were getting better. I didn’t sleep much last night (today is NOT going to be a good day).
I had a massive headache last night, acetaminophen didn’t help. I did some keto 3000 electrolyte powder in water and that helped a bit. This morning instead of fasting I had a mug of homemade bone broth and a large glass of water with apple cider vinegar, redmond salt, pinch of cream of tarter to help stave off headaches(first time I’ve had anything that wasn’t 100% animal product other than meds).

So, I know everyone is saying slow down and take time. I just feel like time isn’t something I really have. I have the mindset, I just feel like my health history and body is not complying. I honestly do appreciate all the info everyone has given and I know it comes from a good place. I wish this was just me trying to lose weight over the course of the year, but it is so much more than that. However, one of my hopes is that by greatly reducing my weight (I’m at 250 lbs and 6 feet) I might remove pressure from the places that are inflamed and in pain. So losing weight quickly is an area of hope and why seeing only 1 lb lost this last week was disheartening this morning.

Maybe I will step back into keto, especially if inflammation and bloating are not going away like I had hopped. However, if pushing through on strict carnivore means there is a chance those things will go away quicker then that may be worth the suffering in other areas.

(Robin) #13

Your last paragraph sums it up quite well. This is your journey… you know all the options and more importantly you know yourself. A sense of urgency for your health is understandable. And trying to temper that for the long term results sounds reasonable too.
Keep us in the loop as you make your way!

#14

Thank you for the additional details. Still, as I pointed out previously, fixing metabolic damage is not an overnight project. If you need motivation just remind yourself as frequently as you need to that however long it takes to mend, you’re adding years of better health to you life. And those years will not be spent in a nursing home bed. :+1:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #15

As far as time is concerned, it is not likely to take that much extra time to go keto first and then adopt a carnivore diet. It will certainly be easier on you. But if you have the stamina and patience to weather a direct transition from SAD to carnivore, then more power to you. But give yourself at least a year to adapt, because you have both the regular keto fat-adaptation to achieve, as well as the adaptation from keto to carnivore. Most of the well-known long-term carnivores went through keto first, before eliminating plants from their diet entirely.

Felix Schwatka, an Arctic explorer in the late nineteenth century, adopted the native Inuit diet, but it took him and his team quite some time to feel well on it, and he was starting from a much lower-carb, higher-fat diet than the standard diet we eat today.

I believe that Vilhjalmur Stefansson went through something similar, though I haven’t had a chance yet to read either of his books, The Fat of the Land and The Friendly Arctic, that I have been recommended (he wrote a number of others, as well). One interesting point from the case study of him and Andersen at Bellevue Hospital in 1928 was that they felt ill only when they had been persuaded to eat lean meat; they had to add fat back into their diet, and it took a couple of days before they improved.

(Mark Rhodes) #16

I am currently doing My Life with the Eskimo on Audible. What is of interest to me is that the Eskimo were already ruined to missionaries and whalers. Vilhjamur based his eating style on his first encounters and the older generations. If you have never seen this take a look https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT7u2GlEfxs Its some 1950s footage of Mr Steffanson.

(Mark Rhodes) #17

Randy my wife has fibromyalgia, Ehlers Danlos, Lipedema and other autoimmune issues. We went carnivore in September of 2021. I created a spreadsheet that she fills out every evening to rate her pain, memory and other feelings. I did this because she suffers from Bi-polar on top of everything else and complain a great deal about forgetting things and brain fog…

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I have taken her daily readings and averaged them weekly. Her overall pain IS better but as you can see she has spikes. It has only been six months with a week off for Christmas and a weekend off for her birthday.

To this end she recently joined the YMCA and the one we joined has a current pool like a lazy river. It allows her to walk against the current to get resistance exercise. On top of this we have been doing yoga. The hope is to transition to some formal resistance training for her. But I would say that without her mood improving none of this would be possible.

in your case time and patience are the creedo.

(Mark Rhodes) #18

OH! AND have your heavy metals tested!!! My wife’s mercury is off the charts and we are having her amalgams removed by a SMART dentist. I don’t think her lack of progress is a failure of the carnivore diet but more a hindrance of heavy metals in her body. Until we clear these away some of those pain disorders CANNOT clear up.

#19

@marklifestyle

What can someone say other than ‘There but for the grace of God go I’? Other than maybe I drew a longer straw from the genetic pool. Or just dumb luck that 7 decades-plus eating the standard approved diet didn’t wreck my metabolism or put me in a nursing home. For what little it’s worth, I feel profound sorrow for your wife’s suffering just for following the ‘rules’.

(Mark Rhodes) #20

Thanks.

We’re doing our best to repair her problems. I’m glad I’m not alone in this and have some of the sharpest minds in the community pooling resources.

As you say it’s a slow slog.