Just curious about this. I am about 5 months on this WOE (not insulin resistant or diabetic or anything). I hear these phrases thrown around the Keto community and am wondering what the difference is, are they the same? Are they necessary? And when I’m talking carbs, I mean like the sweet potatoes, rice, fruits, things like that (I’m not planning on returning to the junk food carbs).
Carb Ups
Carb Backloading
Carb Cycling
Only necessary, (subjective) or perhaps better put as a technique to mitigate metabolic slowdowns ,(starvation response) particularly for people training or excessively fasting. If you’re not experiencing symptoms, there’s no reason for them.
However, if you’re lipostatic and have a balanced insulin-glucagon secretion pattern, occasional Carb intake won’t make you regain fat, as a lipogenic pattern that causes chronic glycogen overcompensation is necessary. Even the occasional intake while losing fat won’t cause regain, such as eating carbs on the weekend, and can potentially be beneficial.
Carb selection is up to you, if some types don’t agree with you, avoid them. Or not, just beware of the effects.
Where are you hearing these things mentioned, are these in keto groups or random non ketp sources?
The most popular type of ketogenic protocol that revolves around carbs is a cyclical ketogenic diet - CKD…and that’s something that I’ve been doing since the early 1990s in fact I was doing it with Lyle McDonald before he wrote his book. More or less it revolves around 5 to 6 days of strict ketogenic and then one to two days of extremely high carbs and very very low fat.
When I was doing it years ago I was coming off losing about 80 lb…non Keto… and then back and forth back and forth with weight gain and then I started a cyclical ketogenic diet and lost a lot of fat while maintaining muscle.
What I would do is 6 days of a strict ketogenic diet with carbs under 25 grams and then one day of anywhere from 400 to 600 grams of carbs and typically under 30 grams of fat. The beauty about this type of protocol is you’ll never find anyone stalling on a CKD, or thyroid issues or issued weith Adaptive Thermogeneis etc …what happens is that you will find you lose a consistent amount of fat weekly, not huge amounts but consistent.
There are other ways you can do this where you just have one day of moderate carb intake maybe 100 to 200 grams and very low fat or even less than that maybe just one meal.
When I was heavier when I first started doing this I would just have one meal every Friday afternoon for lunch a big everything bagel with turkey and cheese and then I will go right back to strict keto and as I continued to lose fat and gotten in much better shape I would up the carbohydrates. You need to test your limit to see how much you can handle. And you won’t get fat because it just comes down to your caloric intake and energy balance as has been seen in me and many of my friends and colleagues that I’ve helped do this exact type of protocol with great success.
I just helped a friend of mine lose 75 pounds doing just this, he didn’t go crazy like I used to do up to 600 grams but he would have a few hundred grams every Friday in one meal and then right back to strict keto. It really helps if you’re working out in the gym on this type of protocol.
I still do the same protcol to this very day but what I find is many people who mention these carb ups are people that are just looking for an excuse to have a cheat day and it’s not a cheat day it’s a specific protocol for a specific goal not just cheat and go off your diet… it is part of your diet…
When you’re strict about it, one of the things that keeps it from being a cheat day is that carbs are just not that much fun without fat!
Thanks for this write-up. I’ve never quite known what CKD was.
I’ve used both CKD and TKD for well over a decade, but over the past several years I’ve been focused on the mechanics of Maintenance, or Lipostasis. It’s actually very hard to trigger a fat regain, as first you have to recompensate glycogen. Even then, you have to chronically eat a Carb based caloric excess, something I tried to do over a two week period. I’m not sure I actually gained any fat, as as soon as I went back to my fat based pattern I shed the glycogen and was only perhaps one pound heavier. And I’m a guy who was always prone to be fat, eventualy to the point of becoming massively obese. Not for some 15 years now.
Limited Carb intake for metabolic purposes is fine, as long as it does not create an adaptation back into chronic lipogenesis. Of course, it temporarily halts fat loss, but there are clear benefits for most people.
One aspect is that it’s nice to take a break and eat some things that you’ve enjoyed. Occasionally eating them won’t really hurt you.
The latest person I’ve advised has lost 60 lbs. Over 60 weeks and is still losing. After the first two months I had him eat carbs on the weekends, not to excess like a full recompensation since he wasn’t training. He’s never really experienced a stall, he’s adjusted his meals and calories so he only eats when hungry and only to the point he’s sated. Sometimes he eats some carbs during the week, but makes sure he’s fairly hungry the next time he eats.
Ken, do you think chronically doing IF and eating hypocalorically (due to lack of hunger not conscious restriction) on low carb can cause a weight loss stall after a period of success?
@240lbfatloss I have a question if you don’t mind.
My goal is to continue to lose bodyfat but not lose LBM and if possible gain
Been adapted since about April 2017
Currently following a Keto protocol. 150-200g of fat, 20 or so g of carbs and roughly 120g protein because I get hungry if I don’t for a 75g LBM. My BF is about 19% guessing based on last Dexa of 20.1BF. I IF 21:3 during the week, eat more heavy on the weekend. Based on your descriptions I am not lipostatic.
Coming off my last EF of 5 days I lifted heavy compound 3 days in a row (normal) with a legs, chest shoulders, back bi tri split. After each workout following the EF I supplemented BCAA and glutamine hoping to reload glycogen in the overtaxed muscles. I think it worked. I was 195 on Friday morning and 202 or 3 lbs heavier on Monday morning.
My thought was that with the insulin spike following glycogen depletion that this would not be stored as body fat. That the amounts ingested we used primarily by the muscles and then cutting off supplementation and IFing Mon-Fri would continue the process.
Other pertinent info: BHB avg this week 1.9 (3 weeks ago I barely got above .8) and mid 80’s BG down from 2 months ago of 93.
Sure, that’s been my experience. Initially, when I went through my first two years of fat loss, which I think of as “The Melt”, when I initially lost 180 lbs, I had no stalls. I wasn’t training, and after the first two months I usually had a piece of fruit or two usually in the late morning when I got hungry. No food before that. That held me until dinner when I had my fat based meal. After those first two years I stalled. I decided to go back into the gym, lost some weight initially, but found TKD to work for me. I never really fasted, unless you count one meal a day. Back then the concept was called the"Warrior Diet", except my meals were keto. I suspect actual fasting may have similar effects to training, as far as increasing the need for periodic Carb intake for some people. It seems to work.
Well, IMO, you’re kind of working at cross purposes. I know many say you can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, but how efficiently? I’d say I did when I resumed training initially, but eventually it seemed I kind 'a slowed/stalled on both. I’d say you make the decision on what you want to do first, you know, either bulk (fat based keto) or cut. Especially if you’re using fasting. If cutting, Lyle’s CKD works, especially if you do the depletion workout protocol before the 36 hr recompensation. My training was full body maintenance stuff, every couple of days, making sure to work all exercises to failure. I did cardio on the off days, but since I find it boring, I’d I usually walk for 30 mins, then do 20 minutes of HIIT. If keto bulking, I just upped my dextrose pre and post training, went to a three day split with one off/cardio day. I’d usually recompensate starting at the end of the last day of my split into my off day, so it was more often than it was while cutting. I’d usually cut for two or three months, aiming for a 10-15 fat loss. Going back to a keto bulk for the next two or three months seemed to make the cuts easier.
Thanks for the response. Yeah that first couple of months using dexascans showed a decrease in fat and an increase in LBM , far more than the error of margin, so yep, thought I could do both! LOL! I recovered from a spinal injury that lasted for a couple of years and couldn’t lift until January. So my muscles were ready and willing to go. I don’t mind my current weight. At 6’2" I wear it well. That being said we all want more, right? I suppose you are correct about cutting. Over the past two months or so your posts have had information and experience, which I value. So again, thank you. Like many of us here I am trying to reeducate myself and apply it. I don’t mind mistakes as long as I learn. The fasting came along because I (and the wife) were at a stall, not uncommon at our point in the journey. Still fasting broke that stall for us both. I’ll admit, I was swinging for the fence.
One of the things I try to stress is that fat gain is a process requiring a chronic pattern, in the hormonal secretion sense.
There is no way that the initial insulin spike from eating carbs when glycogen depleted will cause fat gain. The body does not react/adapt that fast. It really takes long term glycogen overcompensation to gain fat. This is enabled by rises in leptin resistance, due to the chronic overcompensation.
Too many initial keto’ers develop a “Carb Phobia” and do not understand their role in metabolic health. I was guilty of it as well, as the more fat you lose, the happier you are, and the stricter you want to become. However, as insulin and leptin resistance drops and eventually disappears, the more important limited, periodic Carb intake for metabolic purposes becomes.
A good example is how people stress over holidays. A day of carbs is a good way to recompensate, take a break, and enjoy yourself. Just go into it glycogen depleted. Myself, I’ll eat whatever I want, but not eat again until I’m hungry. Usually around 24hrs after my last holiday meal.
Ken- awesome insight and I am glad to see my thinking is on target with yours. I knew the weight gain could not possibly be fat. It could be water/glycogen in the fat tissue but not fat. I could be that I succeeded in cramming my muscles through that spike of BCAAs. Even though I am heavier I don’t feel tight in my clothes, just a little puffier.
We are in the first year of Keto. I have a higher carb tolerance than the wife. I can do 30-50 most days with no negative impacts but stay within the 20 range just so our meals work well together. Somewhere else in the forum I said I was thinking about a carb reload day at the holiday but just pretty much avoid the cakes and such. Too much too soon for me. I did want to see if EF and an IF schedule broke my stall and they have. So I may save the carb reload for the next stall. For me and I think anyone can see, I am not trying to find an excuse to eat “whatever” but planning to eat to continue to optimize my physique and health.
When we started this ( I have no known health issues) I wondered aloud if eating carbs in the fall months would be beneficial to eat from the harvests. That would be more in line with evolution. Some pages I was just shot down! I never forsook that thought though as it makes sense that we evolved from carnivores to omnivores. While we shouldn’t abuse the carbs there is a reason to eat them strategically.
People tend to get obsessive about things, I’m no exception.
I can always tell when I’m holding water because my vascularity disappears.
As far as chronically eating carbs in the Fall, do you need extra fat to make it through the Winter? Nah, just have them periodically, without the fat regain. Eventually, you’ll find it can be even weeks. No need to disrupt your vacations.
One point about Human Evolution.
We’re (or were) evolving towards obligate carnivory, rather than away from it. If you look at our early ancestors found after the undiscovered common ancestor of chimps and humans, such as the australeo and ardipithicenes, they were more plant oriented, but still scavengers. Once genus Homo came along, we steadily evolved towards carnivory, to the point we now cannot effectively produce B-12. It’s only since the Younger Dryas of about 12,000 years ago that Mankind has switched to a Carb based diet, as almost all of the temperate zone, ice age megafauna became extinct.
@240lbfatloss I saw you post some information from October that helped explain “carb-loading” and why you can eat carbs but not actually see much fat gain. Can you provide a little more information on that? I have been doing an excessive amount of EF, so my glycogen stores were definitely depleted. I also had stopped losing weight even though I was doing EF.
Instinctively, I decided to take a 2 week break from keto. I have been eating carbs (some bad, some good) for about 2 weeks and the weight didn’t come back like I expected. I gained SOME weight, but nothing that worried me. Mostly water I think. I am very happy about it, but I would like to know more about why this happened and how it may apply to maintenance. I am only about 24 hours into a EF and i have already dropped 3 of the pounds that I gained. The last time I did a carb up during Thanksgiving, it worked great for me. The weight fell off after going back to keto and EF and I never gained it back. Why do Carb ups work from some people and not for others? If I just stayed strict keto, would I get the same results?
I will be honest though, I feel like crap…bloated, puffy, achy knees, night sweats.
A reason to stop!
I tried it in October over a weekend. Ate a ton of crap. No alcohol but still felt hungover (as opposed to on New Years had a few drinks while LCHF and felt ok). By the end of the weekend I did not even want the pizza I had been planning. I gained weight and still weighed more a week later than I had the prior Friday after doing IF most of the week. Have not intentionally done that since. In the last week perhaps ate a few beans and some extra nuts and fruit but that is it. While I do not measure levels, my hunch is I am still IR and that is why carbing up was not a good idea. I did learn I could go back and that right now my digestive system does not handle crap really well
As a former athlete, former competitive powerlifter, my first exposures to keto where CKD’s. I was able to lose a good chunk of weight on CKD’s, but man, the one thing I hated was going in an out of ketosis. Each week was a struggle feeling like crap getting in and out. One of the biggest deterrents from me getting back into a Ketogenic diet was memory of how brutal it was.
My favorite part of a ZC/keto diet is the fact that Im not cycling in and out like on a carb backloading or CKD diet. Maybe things would be different if I was still a competitive athlete, since month 3 of keto, I feel like glycogen replenishing happens much easier.
It’s pretty simple. In order to regain fat you have to follow a pattern that causes you to totally recompensate glycogen. When you overeat in that state, you have the conversion to triglycerides and fat gain. It’s actually pretty tough to do unless you go completely back to a Carb based pattern. This is why it’s handy to know what amount of glycogen capacity you have, so if you eat carbs yet keep under that amount, you know you’re nowhere near converting back to lipogenesis.
People should be more aware of what is happening when they experience weight flux, as it almost never is a function of fat. It’s more likely to be due to water, be it glycogen, retention due to salt, or your body finally shedding excess fat cells that were temporarily filled with water. Even if using EF, you can perhaps only lose around one half lb. of fat in a day, and there is always the possibility that some muscle is lost as well. Thermodynamics does have application, and fat has 3,500 Cal’s per lb. It’s long been known that moderate protein is muscle sparing when cutting.
There are several different levels and approaches to periodic Carb intake while following an overall lipolytic nutritional pattern. It can be as low as having some fruit in the morning when hungry, then eating a normal fat based meal in the evening. The carbs are used rather than stored. I did this quite a bit and continued to lose fat. The next level would be a Carb based meal, either one or even a days worth, with a break of a day or so in order to prevent glycogen recompensation. Lastly would be total glycogen recompensation, requiring about 36 hrs. with an excess Carb intake of about a days worth of calories. Heavy training athletes often do this once per week.
As many have noted, it’s uncomfortable to swing back and forth. IMO, that’s a sign of some degree of derangement, as I experienced it also, but it is now long since gone. Now, for me, there’s really no noticable difference when I do it. It took a while, several years in fact. I’m not counting carbs that are discordant to me such as grains, but generally it takes more of them now for me to experience bloating. You have to experiment a bit to find what you’re comfortable with. I suspect that one of the reasons for problems is that going long periods without eating significant carbs causes a reduction of amylase production, so the body finds it harder to respond to them.
@240lbfatloss Thank you so much for the information. How do I know my glycogen capacity? How do I measure it? I would imagine that knowing your individual capacity of glycogen tolerance before it starts to convert to fat is extremely helpful with weight loss and knowing what/when you can have a few more carbs. This is eye opening information.
The best wat to determine capacity is to remember the amount of weight you dropped the first three or four days of keto. But, even that’s often not good because so many consume electrolytes during that period. About the only thing other than that would be to go through a recompensation and see how many pounds you add. As an example, I’m 6’1", and fairly muscular, with approx a 14" “drop”, which means my chest measures 14" larger than my pants. I carry between 12-14 lbs. of glycogen when recompensated, but I can easily add another 5-6 lbs. (or more) if I eat salty foods on top of it.
ok last question. What about measuring the amount of weight I drop during the first 3-4 days of fasting? Would that be about the same? thank you again for the knowledge. 
I love this forum