Carb Ups, Carb Backloading, Carb Cycling?

(Ken) #21

No, it wouldn’t work, because if you’re in lipolysis (keto) already, your glycogen is already depleted. I’ll reiterate, any quick weight flux is probably due to water, fasting included.

It’s not really worth being over concerned with, it takes more than a recompensation if you’re fat adapted to flip you back into lipogenesis. That’s the real point, how hard it is to actually regain fat. It really takes a chronic, Carb based pattern.

This is a point I’m trying to drive home to people, carbs are valuable in the metabolic sense, as long as used intermittantly or periodically. IMO, if people understood this, they wouldn’t have to resort to EF to break stalls. That and understanding that eating excessive fat and low protein can cause fat loss stalls as well.

EF is not a keto rule.
One g of protein per K of LBM is not a keto rule.
Eating fat to satiety when it results in an excessively high fat macro is not a keto rule.
Grass fed is not a keto rule.
ZC is not a keto rule.

Carbohydrates have their place, for metabolic purposes especially.

(Dawn) #22

So if I understand correctly, two weeks of a carb up (since I am fully keto adapted) isn’t necessarily enough to cause a fat gain, it’s all water…and I really should relax? LOL!!!

I love the idea of intermittently introducing healthy carbs based on my tolerance. Thank you again for the insight.

(Adam Kirby) #23

For what reason? What is the science behind this statement?

(Ken) #24

You’re welcome. But, remember, when eating carbs try not to exceed daily caloric requirements unless specifically doing a glycogen recompensation. Really, you just “flip your macros” for whatever period you choose.

(Ken) #25

Here’s a good introduction to the concept of anorexigenic and orexigenic hormones. Be sure to read all three parts. It was written for Bodybuilders, but has application for everyone.

(Adam Kirby) #26

Man that was dense reading. So the basic idea, if I understand it, is a carb refeed increases leptin a way that a fat refeed does not? Ok, but how does it explain people who get ravenous when they ingest carbs? I would expect such a leptin increase to prevent that.

(Dawn) #27

@240lbfatloss @akirby83 Yeah, that was a lot to take in. But it was totally awesome and very informative. It answers alot of questions for me about some of the things going on with my body during my N=1 experiments with carbs.

(Adam Kirby) #28

I should say that I don’t think carb intake is bad, and indeed many people can handle quite a bit more than 20g/day. I come at the issue more from a psychological angle though, people go over 20g and they flagellate themselves for days. Occasionally eating carbs shouldn’t ever be a source of guilt or shame. I’m onboard with Ken that your typical eating pattern is what determines your success, not your occasional dalliances. I’m just curious about actual metabolic reasons for not constantly doing LCHF.

(A ham loving ham! - VA6KD) #29

This is all very interesting as I find that a day carbing up often leads to a weight woosh about 5 days after going back to full keto. Take Christmas for example: Two days of royally falling off the keto wagon and gorging on starchy veges, roasts, and sweets and boom, 7lbs heavier after. Two days of IF and three days back at (strict) keto and woosh 6lbs gone.

Also, I find if I eat carby food and/or fall for some sugary things, shortly after now I feel a little woozey, my heart rate noticeably increases and my hands and feet feel warm. I hope it’s the right assumption, as I assume now it’s my metabolism doing the right thing by ramping up to burn off the sugars as fast as possible.

(Ken) #30

The leptin mechanism is fascinating. Since leptin is found in fat, and the receptors are found in the hypothalamus, the concept of leptin resistance is key. It appears to me that when following a Carb based pattern, the leptin response to the relatively lower intake of fat is massively reduced. I remember when I was obese, it seemed that no amount of food sated me. Now, my leptin response is normalized, I feel sated even when I periodically eat Carb/protein, fairly low fat combinations. There doesn’t appear to me, IMO to be a parallel hormonal secretion causing satiety when eating carbs. Leptin resistance aids carbohydrate over consumption. This is not unreasonable in the evolutionary context, as carbs were infrequent and seasonal, so the body was geared to make maximum benefit of them, being the ability to adapt quickly into a lipogenic, insulin secreting pattern in order to store as much fat as possible.

It is this state/mechanism creating leptin resistance that explains why CICO is not really important in the initial, adaptive stage of lipolysis/keto. I myself sluiced fat off rapidly during my first two years because of it, and I remember always feeling very sated. If fact, CICO is not really relevant when lipolytic/ketogenic, with the caveat that metabolic derangement is gone and you’re in maintenance. It does become relevant when trying to lose additional fat. I myself have to cut my last 30 lbs., or a five gallon buckets worth, I’ll have to practice IF and never eat unless hungry. No big deal, I’ve already lost eight buckets, the ninth will just mean I’ll have to be hungry for between 15-30 weeks.

(Ken) #31

That’s a pretty good assumption. The weight was a combination of water/glycogen, not fat gain. ill effects were a combination of a couple of things, eating carbs your body finds genetically discordant, (for me it’s grains) or the fact your body got used to not producing as much amylase to deal with the Carb consumption. Were you to continue to eat carbs (no, I’m NOT suggesting that) your body would ramp up production and the effects would decrease.

(A ham loving ham! - VA6KD) #32

and

Yep… I’m starting to think that (excessive) carbs as the occasional exception, not the norm, is nothing to worry about… At least for my n=1. :slight_smile:

#33

I’m so proud I read this and completely understood your meaning. I feel that going Keto and educating myself on metabolism must be the equivalent of an undergrad in biology. I feel I know more about metabolism and our fat / glucose burning pathways than most nutritionists, possibly even many doctors.

Anyway, weighing in on this - does anybody have research that points to how long it takes to

  1. burn off muscle glycogen (is it “used up” with new space available immediately after a workout?
  2. how long it takes after ingesting carbs to have usable muscle glycogen “in the tank”

Example: I have full muscle glycogen. I consume say 50g of carbs, and within 2 hours I do an intense calisthenics routine burning up say half my existing glycogen stores.

Will any of that 50g carb be used to refill glycogen? Trying to figure out timing of higher carb meals around workouts.