Carb increase for a day

(k) #1

Been on Keto for a month. Dropped weight which mostly was water to start with. Now am dropping weight but has slowed down. I work out resistance and cardio most days. Have been on 20g carbs, if I have 100/150g of carbs for two days, that will bring me out of ketosis. Will it take long to get back in. Will a few good workouts remove the glycogen stores.
Reasons I want to have a carb day or two after a month. To increase fibre as am not getting enough as haven’t been as regular. When I eat certain vegetables it is fine, but cant do that everyday. Also going out with friends for dinner with friends, might have a carb meal. I will be working out on the days too if that helps.

#2

Going into ketosis is always pretty quick for a human, a few days do the trick…

I wouldn’t raise carbs without fat adaptation but you may do whatever you want with your woe and you will see how your body reacts. I do exactly that, actually.

We don’t need fibers but it’s easy to consume a lot on keto, vegetables are carby but there are pure fibers, they are often used in baked goods but some people just use it as fiber supplement…

Exercise on higher-carb days is a good idea.

(k) #3

How do I know when am in fat adaption?
I am burning fat i think, as has been a month, so can’t all be water. It does fluctuate. I check after a few days, sometimes there is no shift, has even gone up slightly and then other times see a drop. is never linear, could be reasons for it. I think there is undigested food, as is why i want more fibre.
You’re right can get it from vegetables and other foods, but don’t want to eat the same thing nearly everyday. Will look at different options to see what foods i can have in the carb limit.

#4

I don’t think there is a sure way to tell… Many of us has very obvious changes, I knew mine that way. I needed 7 weeks. And people say it gets deeper, better as much more time passes, I don’t know about that. My hunger and satiation drastically changed at that point - but many people have a different hunger already in ketosis so I don’t know how to tell. If someone has strenuous exercise (I hadn’t), better performance may be a strong hint… One month is enough for some people as far as I know but most of us need a bit more time for any level of fat adaptation.

You don’t need top eat the same thing every day, there are many kinds of vegetables, the dishes may be pretty different even using the same ones, you can put fiber into zillion things too but when people take supplements, they just take that every day, it’s supplement, variety and fun has nothing to do with it… But it’s probably not for you or me. I prefer getting what I need with my food myself. Only some extreme situation could force me taking some supplement for a little while. But fiber is really easy to get. I could put some bamboo or oat fiber or phyllium husk into my scrambled eggs, I just don’t need fiber at all.

(k) #5

Thanks, from what I have read in your post and online, cravings energy level etc. I could be and not, guess the only way to know is from the scale or how clothes start to fit.
As i don’t feel hungry even if am on low calories, which i have increased since my last post. But on some exercises i do feel my performance has reduced slightly.

Thanks for your comments

(Jill F.) #6

I eat lots of salad and broccoli and cauliflower. I dont know about you but I didn’t gain weight before overeating veggies! Maybe French fry veggies, or donuts but not cauliflower! I almost hate to even consider the carbs in veggies (I do) because I know I need the fiber and I KNOW what I gained the weight on before werent things that grew on top of the ground! :laughing:

(UsedToBeT2D) #7

I think many of us on Keto have had to change our definition of regular.

(Ken) #8

You’re Training so things are different for you. People who don’t train are seldom aware of the differences.

Since you may not be adapted, I suggest you start slow. The best way is to follow more of a TKD approach. Consume around 20g of simple carbs before Training and then 40g right afterwards. Thats three rolls of Smarties for 20g. Grind them in a glass of water. You do not even need to do this daily. Try it for a few days and see if it makes a difference. You can then determine the frequency and amounts thay works for you.

Having a carb meal once per week with your friends is insignificant, and fine.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #9

Ketosis depends on the interaction of two hormones secreted by the pancreas, glucagon and insulin. The former is secreted by the α-cells in the Islets of Langerhans, the latter by the β-cells. Since the two types of cells are intermingled, the secretion of each hormone helps regulate the secretion of the other. Glucagon is the primary hormone that stimulates the process of ketogenesis (ketone production) in the liver, and insulin is the primary hormone that inhibits ketogenesis.

Our insulin level is determined mostly by the amount of glucose in our bloodstream, and to a lesser extent on the amount of protein we eat, depending on circumstances. So if we eat a lot of carbohydrate, then the degree of insulin secreted will determine whether we will remain in ketosis or not, and the amount of insulin secreted will depend both on how much carbohydrate we eat, and on how insulin-resistant our cells are (the more insulin-restant we are, the more insulin our pancreas has to secrete).

When we eat very little carbohydrate, glucagon secretion increases and stimulates the liver to make ketone bodies to feed the rest of the body (the liver also makes a certain amount of glucose to feed those cells that cannot use ketones). The primary determinant of whether we are in ketosis or not is the ratio of insulin to glucagon in the bloodstream. A low ratio (i.e., less insulin, more glucagon) means that we are in ketosis. A high ratio (more insulin, less glucagon) means that cells are going to be forced to use glucose instead of ketones, and any excess glucose in the bloodstream will be stored as fat in the adipose tissue.

While we enter ketosis as soon as our carbohydrate intake drops low enough, there is a period of fat-adaptation when we first adopt a ketogenic diet. This period of adaptation is when the muscles re-learn to metabolise fatty acids in place of glucose, and it takes normally somewhere between six and eight weeks. During the adaptation period, people find that their endurance is less than it was pre-keto, but once they are adapted, they find that their endurance has returned to pre-keto levels, and is often even better. Glycogen stores take somewhat longer to return to normal, but a recent study has shown that after two years of keto-adaptation, the glycogen stores of fat-adapted athletes are the same as those of carb-adapted athletes.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #10

You can try it and see what happens. Some folks like @240lbfatloss claim they can eat large amounts of carbs with impunity. Because ‘Exercise!’ I remain unconvinced. I’ve never seen any of these folks post a continuous glucose plot or hourly ketone measurements to back up their claims. On the other hand I’ve seen multiple studies that demonstrate that glycogen remains normal in fat adapted keto athletes compared to carb-eaters. So there seems no point.

You’re only a month in and my recommendation is that you do not try it yet. Generally, it takes several months to become efficiently fat adapted. Although your metabolism can switch back and forth early on, not very efficiently. You’ll be much better off, in my opinion, to give yourself time to get more efficiently fat adapted before playing around with carbs. Although, I will say again I see no point doing so.

As for your other issues: on keto adding ‘fiber’ is going to accomplish nothing other than retard your progress. With the change to keto you can expect some disruption. But your bowels are going to adjust and be OK. Be aware that with lots less ingested dross, it takes longer to build up enough overall bulk to stimulate a movement. So frequency will likely slow. Unless you experience actual pain trying to dump, don’t worry about it. You will reach a new normal soon enough. If you feel you need to purge from time to time, use either liquid or powdered MCT oil as a laxative. If you’ve got diarrhea, on the other hand, cream cheese will help firm things up.

As for eating out with friends and family, view it as an opportunity to educate them. Order protein and fat foods and skip the carbs: bread, veggies, etc. When they ask why, explain. Most will think you’re doing something really difficult and admire your inner strength. :blush:

Best wishes.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #11

I find also that salt intake has an influence on the bowel. Lack of salt can cause constipation, and too much can make stools unpleasant. As far as fibre is concerned, anecdotal evidence from the forums suggests that while some people continue to need fibre, most other either don’t need it or find it actively harmful.

The reason fibre is supposed to be beneficial to the colon is that intestinal bacteria convert it into a chemical called butyrate. But on a ketogenic diet, we generate quantities of the related chemical, β-hydroxybutyrate, which the colon appears to benefit from even more, thus rendering fibre unnecessary (for most people).

(Ken) #12

Silly response. Having 240 calories of Dextrose around a Workout is hardly an example of “eating carbs with impunity” It is a TKD, the protocols which have been around for decades now. If you really have the curiosty of having your questions answered, all you have to do is go over to the Keto subforum on Bodybuilding.com. and ask your question. There’s plenty of fitness people who log and track.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #13

Hey, Ken. I don’t particularly care what you eat or don’t, nor why. If you’re happy, carry on. I suggested that @ketodieter try and see what happens. Just advised to wait until better fat adapted. I have no questions about carbs and couldn’t care less about TDK. As I noted, studies indicate that fat adapted athletes maintain glycogen stores as well as carb-eaters and perform as well or better. So again I see no point eating carbs.

(Ethan) #14

If you remove all the vegetables, you may find that things improve

(Ken) #15

Nor do I care about what you eat, nor your unscientific beliefs or lack of personal experience.

What I do care about is when people spread misinformation they falsely believe will help people. I take it you didn’t bother to follow my suggestion about expanding your knowledge. No doubt you already know everything. Be happy in your Dogma.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #16

So have CICO-based diet protocols.

You have some data to show us? Like glucose plots, ketone plots? Anything?

32%20PM

#17

Even when I was on only 20g net carbs a day I was consuming enough fiber. You can eat chia, for instance, just thrown on your food. Ground flaxseed, too.

There’s also bamboo fiber and stuff like that, if you really think you’re down on fiber.

No need to up carbs just for the fibers.

(Ken) #18

Another silly response. Especially when attempting to equate a ketogenic (Lipolytic) concept with carb based CICO semistarvation. I’ve already given you the site to educate yourself with to expand your knowledge, from people who track the things you profess to be interested in. Rejection and lack of intellectual curiosity is your choice.
Running is not Resistance Training. It’s Apples to Oranges. If you had personal experience you’d understand that.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #19

@240lbfatloss The FASTER study demonstrated that there is zero need to eat glucose to maintain normal glycogen levels. Whether one then expends the glycogen in high intensity or endurance work does not matter. If instead you eat glucose to maintain glycogen, you simply interfere with ketosis and repress fat adaptation.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #20

What confuses things is that it takes longer for glycogen levels to return to normal than it does to become fat-adapted. We used to get posts on these forums from people new to a ketogenic diet, whose endurance was better than ever once they became fat-adapted, but whose explosive power was still less than it had been. The keto-adapted athletes with normal glycogen that Volek’s team studied had all been on a ketogenic diet for a couple of years at that point. I don’t think anyone’s done a study yet of just when glycogen returns to normal. So far, all we know is that it’s sometime between the eight-week and two-year marks.