Carb increase for a day

(Bob M) #21

@240lbfatloss and @amwassil I tend to agree with Ken. I’ve been LC/keto for almost 7 years, and have no issues exercising. However, when I tried a TKD to also test high saturated fat, I found what I THINK was larger muscles and quicker recuperation.

I then stopped the TKD (the saturated fat test was mainly a bust), and found my strength decreasing. I’m back to testing a TKD again to see what happens.

I’m going to set up an N=1 post about this. My version is trying to find a plant I can eat that doesn’t cause me issues and get maybe 30-40 grams of carbs the first meal after exercising. Since spaghetti squash are in season, and they don’t seem to cause me issues, I’ve been using them. Only tested one day so far, though.

(Bob M) #22

By the way, I think this is another case of looking through our own lenses. I don’t believe Michael has ever been muscular (let me know if I’m wrong), but I assume Ken has, and I have. I was a pseudo-bodybuilder for years and got quite muscular and “strong” at one time. (Strength is relative: think I only benched in the low 300s - pounds - and squatted in the 4-500 range, with deadlifts close to squat; but that was the best I could possibly do. Dang genetics.)

If you’re not lifting and not muscular, then carbs might not affect you as much.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #23


@ctviggen In my youth/young adulthood I was a distance runner, so yes, always have been lean. I never tried to bulk up in any significant way, although I’ve pumped iron occasionally. My primary bias now is that ketosis is healthful metabolic state to be in and to remain in it consistently is preferable to not. I’ve always had ‘adequate’ strength and a good level of overall fitness. Even now at the age of 75 I suspect I am more physically fit and active than 90% of my peers. I’m betting on keto to keep me so.


150g isn’t a lot and you’ll burn whats left pretty quickly. If your cardio is intense it’ll burn that much quicker. I wouldn’t worry about carbs from fiber at all, I’m also the type that does much better with higher fiber. Keeping it out for years screwed me up pretty bad.

(Bob M) #25

The difference is that the Phinney study used aerobic exercise, not lifting. When I was younger, my lean body mass was probably around 150-160 pounds, and that’s zero fat mass. Heck, my last DEXA scan, I had 130 pounds of lean mass, and I’m way stronger now.

If you look at competitive cyclists, for instance, they are emaciated. When you have tiny muscles, it should be easy to replace glycogen. When you’re doing a full body workout on 130+ pounds of muscle, you probably need more glycogen.

For comparison, on my “long” days, I do 11 sets on my chest, all to failure. I do about the same for legs/lower body, back, and abs. I’m sure – even as old as I am, with much less muscle mass than I had when I was younger – some increased carbs might help.

I’ll find out with the TKD I’m trying.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #26

@ctviggen Bob, I know you record lots of data. Do you have data for glucose/ketone plots while doing TKD? I think that would be interesting data to look at. My contention is that going for a short term gain in glycogen via TKD retards/prevents a long term gain by remaining consistently in ketosis. As @PaulL point out above, it takes much longer for glycogen levels to return to normal after adopting keto than fat adaptation. If you constantly interfere with the process by eating carbs instead, I doubt it ever happens. So TKD becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. You have to do it simply because doing so prevents the long term return to normality.

As for competitive cyclist being ‘emaciated’ - look at their legs. If I had to choose, I’d rather have the legs of a competitive cyclist than the torso of 1976 Arnold Schwarzenegger.

(Ken) #27

If you take a real look at the study, you can see the low carb group consumed a 10% carb level. 10%, not ZC, not <20g, but 10%. Why do you think they chose that level? It is because it is well known for literally decades that limited and periodic carb consumption optimizes metabolic health. At an approx. 10% level you’re really not consuming them for energy, but for metabolic balance and optimization. With a TKD concept you’re consuming them Daily, but with the CKD concept you’re essentially banking them for consumption during a 36 hour period once per Week

So you see, the Study actually confirms the concept I support (and follow) rather than being distorted in order to support yours.

I will again reiterate, you can easily find the information which would confirm what I’m talking about, I’ve given you the sources where to find it.

(Ken) #28

Thats a pretty good term. I would fall into the “pseudo-bodybuilder” category, as well as the “fitness lifestyle” one. At one point I could freebar 405, but those days are long gone.

(Ken) #29

It’s not that endurance cyclists and runners are emaciated, it’s that their training depends on Type I Slow Twitch muscle fibers. If you don’t resistance train to stimulate Type II fibers not only will they not grow, but your body will use them as a protein source.


That’s what I came up with when I kept upping carbs with little results. At my last check almost 180 of my 230lbs at that time was muscle. Took a lot more to produce the results I wanted, but didn’t get the downsides either.

Yup! Working out like that is definitely where you see the world of difference with carbs. When I’m in heavy phases I don’t see a ton of difference either way, but tons of reps and going to failure the carbs make all the difference in the world. Plus, once that pump hits you my drive to keep going shoots through the roof. Nothing says keep going like when your sleeves get stuck up and don’t come back down!

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #31

Post-exercise glycogen repletion in the absence of food intake

One extreme dietary condition that would be expected to impair the synthesis of muscle glycogen during recovery from exercise is the absence of food. Is it possible for our muscles to re-build at least part of their glycogen stores after exercise if food is not available? This is a situation likely to have had a major impact on the survival of our ancestors who, as a result of their hunter- gatherers life-style, were at increased risks of experiencing regular episodes of prolonged fast. This notion that skeletal muscles might have the capacity to replenish their glycogen independently of food intake is not a novel one as it was central to the work of the Nobel Laureat, Otto Meyerhof, who, nearly a hundred years ago, provided evidence, based on the use of isolated frog muscle preparations, that skeletal muscles have such a capacity (Fournier et al., 2002). It is only over the past 30 years, however, that experiments have been performed in humans and a wide range of animal species to establish if this is also the case in intact animals. The general consensus is that, after exercise, skeletal muscles in humans have the capacity to replenish at least part of their glycogen stores without food intake, irrespective of whether they are recovering from prolonged aerobic exercise (Hultman and Bergström, 1967; Maehlum et al., 1978) or from high intensity exercise (Hermansen and Vaage, 1977; Peters-Futre et al., 1987; Astrand et al., 1986; Bangsbo et al., 1991, 1997; Fairchild et al., 2003). Moreover, we have also shown that this resynthesis occurs across all muscle fiber types (Fairchild et al., 2003).

Muscle glycogen repletion during active recovery from intense exercise

In support of the view that active recovery inhibits glycogen resynthesis is the observation that glycogen repletion in individuals fed carbohydrate post-exercise is impaired during active recovery (Bonen et al., 1985). Moreover, a more recent study also supports indirectly the view that glycogen synthesis is inhibited during active recovery (Choi et al., 1996), with a combination of active and passive recovery being accompanied by a lower extent of glycogen synthesis than with passive recovery alone in overnight fasted individuals (Choi et al., 1996). Unfortunately, the impact of active recovery per se on glycogen synthesis was not examined in this study because no muscle sampling was performed at the end of the active recovery period (Choi et al., 1996). Also, since all the muscle biopsies were obtained through the same incision site in this study, and that this has been shown to impair glycogen synthesis (Costill et al., 1988), the extent of glycogen accumulation post-exercise might have been underestimated (Choi et al., 1996).

Metabolic pathways responsible for the conversion of lactate into muscle glycogen

Given the evidence that lactate is likely to be the major carbon source mobilised for the synthesis of muscle glycogen during passive, and maybe, active recovery, this raises the question of the metabolic pathway responsible for its conversion into muscle glycogen. In theory, the synthesis of muscle glycogen from lactate could occur via two metabolic pathways, muscle lactate glyconeogenesis and the Cori cycle. These pathways have already been the object of numerous reviews (McDermott and Bonen, 1992; Pascoe and Gladden, 1996; Palmer and Fournier, 1997; Donovan and Pagliassotti, 2000; Fournier et al., 2002), and for this reason will be discussed only briefly here. The former pathway involves only the participation of skeletal muscles, and it differs from hepatic gluconeogenesis in that there is no intra-mitochondrial step involved, and the most recent evidence point to the reversal of the reaction normally catalysed by pyruvate kinase as being responsible for the conversion of pyruvate into PEP (Palmer and Fournier, 1997; Dobson et al., 2002). The Cori cycle, on the other hand, differs in many respects from lactate glyconeogenesis in that more than one organ are involved. Indeed, following its release from skeletal muscle, lactate is removed by the liver or kidneys where it is converted via gluconeogenesis into glucose. Once produced, glucose is released into the blood before being taken up and stored as glycogen in skeletal muscles. Although, there is a general agreement that the former pathway plays the major role in glycogen synthesis from lactate in fish, amphibians and reptiles (reviewed in Gleeson, 1996; Fournier et al., 2002), the relative contributions of muscle lactate glyconeogenesis and Cori cycling to the resynthesis of muscle glycogen in humans and rats have been a controversial issue. Earlier studies in humans and rats have identified muscle lactate glyconeogenesis as the primary route responsible for lactate conversion into muscle glycogen (Hermansen and Vaage, 1977; Astrand et al., 1986; Nikolovski et al., 1996), but those findings have been subsequently challenged (Gaesser and Brooks, 1984; Bangsbo et al., 1991; Palmer and Fournier, 1997), with more recent evidence indicating that the Cori cycle plays also an important role (Bangsbo et al., 1991, 1997). What is still unclear, is the relative contributions of both pathways to the recycling of lactate into muscle glycogen (reviewed in Fournier et al., 2002).

Regulation of post-exercise glycogen repletion in the absence of food intake

It is noteworthy that under conditions expected to be highly unfavourable to glycogen synthesis following high intensity exercise, such as food absence or active recovery, the rates of muscle glycogen synthesis in humans and rats are among the highest reported in the literature (Pascoe and Gladden, 1996; Nikolovski et al, 1996; Fairchild et al., 2003).


In conclusion, during recovery from exercise, it is possible for skeletal muscles to replenish their glycogen stores under conditions expected to be highly unfavourable to glycogen synthesis such as fasting or active recovery. The rates of muscle glycogen synthesis can be very high under these conditions, most probably because of the acute activation of glucose transport and glycogen synthase and inhibition of glycogen phosphorylase. This capacity of skeletal muscles to replenish their glycogen stores under extreme conditions is clearly advantageous as it allows muscles to maintain adequate levels of glycogen stores for fight or flight responses.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #32

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #33

Glycogen is glycogen. Your distinction is irrelevant. Glycogen is replenished by gluconeogenesis. Eating glucose only prevents adaptation, so it’s a self-fulfilling prediction: you eat glucose, don’t get fully adapted, feel weak, etc., then eat glucose to compensate, don’t get fully adapted, feel weak, etc. Until you finally ‘bite the bullet’ and stop eating glucose, you never get fully adapted.

(Ken) #34

After a quick skim, since I have read them all in the Past, I’d like to note that the studies generally show a carb intake higher than ZC or <20g levels advocated by Keto Dogmatists. I will again reiterate, limited and periodic slightly higher carb intake is beneficial for Metabolic purposes. I do appreciate the posting of the studies that support this position.

(Ken) #35

Not quite sure how you twisted my post about Type I vs. Type II muscle fiber training into one about Glycogen. My post had nothing to do with that, it was about different stimulus levels to work the different fibers. Your response was irrelevant.

(k) #36

Thank you al for the responses. Hadn’t logged in for a while. This is good information I will need to digest it.