Can you be Keto and get really fat?


(Bunny) #124

Back to the original title of the thread:

Can you be Keto and get really fat?

That is a big fat YES!

Eat too much dietary fat, you will get fat because your not oxidizing it fast enough, oxidation or ketosis can’t remove them (especially the omega-6 fats exceeding 6% in calories) fast enough, and they start to build up in the the adipose tissue.

[1] “…The above results suggest that a vitamin B6 deficiency impairs omega-3 metabolism from alpha-linolenic acid to EPA and DHA, with the most pronounced effect on the production of DHA (Tsuge et al, 2000). …” …More

[2] “…Closely related omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids act as competing substrates for the same enzymes.[3] This outlines the importance of the proportion of omega-3 to omega-6 fatty acids in a diet…” …More

[3] An Increase in the Omega-6/Omega-3 Fatty Acid Ratio Increases the Risk for Obesity

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(mole person) #125

I eat over 80% of calories from fat and I’m 106lbs and losing weight. My body isn’t having any trouble oxidizing the fat.


(Bunny) #126

You must be eating the proper amount of fat for your body type or adipose to muscle tissue ratio?.

What do you consider in volume 80% calories or over from fat in grams?

In other words what variety of foods in the amount of grams (weighed out) of fat they contain are equivalent 80% (or over?) of your calories?


#127

Did he list somewhere what he was eating? Is “obesogenic rat chow” an allusion to a diet made up of processed keto labelled foods?


#128

Could it not also be interpreted as increased thyroid hormone* sensitivity? Especially if Free T3 is low, Reverse T3 is low, Free T4 is low or normal, and Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH) is normal?

Low carbohydrate eaters do present a, sometimes, unique physiological state.


#129

Crikey, another misunderstanding puzzle to decipher.

It’s probably worth mentioning insulin when talking about eating, I think. Insulin is the regulator for the release of free fatty acids from adipose tissue that fuel ketosis in the liver.

So Mark can stay in nutritional ketosis while eating by controlling hunger and choosing foods with very low carbohydrate content, and low in insulin stimulating amino acids. Whereas someone else may eat some foods that do stimulate insulin release that shuts down ketogenisis and the linked lypolysis. Hence in that scenario, eating does stop ketosis.

You are both correct, as far as I can read, in your own interpretations that depend on what is being eaten, or on insulin release related to hunger and the anticipation of a meal.

Fasting longer than one 24hour period with a fat adapted metabolism, targeted carbohydrate eating (if done in a maintenance weight individual) coupled with eating in a designated limited time feeding window e.g not eating at all for 16 hours every 24hrs, and physical activity (for those able or motivated by a keto high) can, from my low glycemic slow absorption of the information, enhance nutritional ketosis.


(mole person) #130

I eat the PKD diet, so I only eat meat and animal fat (as well as organs and soft tissues). Nothing else. To get the PKD ratio of 2:1 fat:protein by weight I follow Paleo-Medicina’s instructions of having 1/3 of my plate content be white fat and 2/3’s red meat. I am not measuring. But I’m pretty sure its about a pound a day of food total. Not much more generally.

You are supposed to measure on this diet but mainly to get your diet tweaked so that your blood glucose and ketones fall into the ranges that Paleo-Medicina is targetting (70-80 glucose, 2-3 ketones). Mine are doing it naturally on the amount of food my body naturally wants to eat, so I’m very lucky.


(Ellenor Bjornsdottir (spare me thy resistant starch spiel)) #132

Obesigenic rat chow here refers to a possibly higher omega 6 level and a definitely higher carb level.

The Woo seemed to speculate that he was at 9% TDEI protein. Which is deficient.


(kovack) #133

Me too. I’ve gained 27 lbs slowly over the late 1-1/2 years since an appendectomy. Prior to surgery I’d been keto for > 2 years . I still follow my same keto diet regime. My ketone levels vary from 0.5 in the morning to as high as 2.2. I can’t puzzle this out. My husband follows the same keto regime, bet has maintained weight loss ( no change) with the only difference between us — I am minus my appendix. We are into this lifestyle 4 years. I’d love to engage a keto doc, but cannot find one local. Any advice on a doc to assist, even if at a distance?


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #134

@kovack From what I’ve read on this forum for the better part of the past year since I joined, women generally seem to have more weight issues on keto than men do. I won’t hazard a guess as to why, although I have suspicions (testosterone and estrogen). Anyway, it seems that many women add IF and occasional longer fasts and doing so seems to help. @Momof5


(Susan) #135

@kovack

Yes I totally agree with this.

I do this protocol from IDM (Dr. Jason Fung):

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I extend it to 44 hours from the suggested 42 so that I can keep my 20:4 TMAD on my eating days. Also, Saturday’s usually end up being an OMAD for me of supper only (due to our son visiting, and me getting busy hanging out with him, etc).

I also do the monthly Zornfast that is a forum occasion and has its own thread monthly. It is named after one of our admins, Brenda Zorn, and she works at IDM with Dr.Jason Fung as well. It is the third Thursday of the month; however, I usually start on the Tuesday night and go for as long as I can -January’s one I did 91 hours. The idea is to do about 72 or more hours, but some people do less as well =).


(Edith) #136

I was keto for two years and my weight started to creep back up. I am 53 and perimenopausal so that may have had something to do with it.

I’ve seen several explanations as to why that happens:

  1. we are eating too much dietary fat. Our body can’t utilize its fat stores if we are ingesting all the fat it needs.

  2. No one wants to hear this, but it could be that once we are fat adapted we still need to worry about calories. Once we get past the fat stigma and make delicious keto meals, it is still possible to eat more than we need of those very palatable meals.

  3. Carb creep. I think once we are keto for a while and relax our counting of macros, it is easy to let carbs creep back in. Dr. Eric Westman tells his patients to only use total carbs and not net carbs.
    Keto desserts, dairy, and nuts I think make it quite easy to eat more carbs than we realize.

  4. You might need more protein and less fat. Dr. Ted Naiman believes that we keep eating food until we get the amount of protein our body needs. Once the need is met, we get satiated. You may be eating more than you need overall because your protein is too low.

I ended up changing over to carnivore for a few reasons, but one of them was to lose my last few pounds. I find I am way more satiated on carnivore and can intermittent fast with more ease. Two meals a day is way more common for me now than 3MAD. But, I think if I was sticking to meat and just a few servings of low carb vegetables, no fancy keto meals, or nuts, I might have the same satisfaction as on carnivore. I may play with vegetables some time in the future. For now, I’m seeing if carnivore will help me with some joint issues.

Please let us know if you figure out something that helps.


(Jack Bennett) #137

I’m increasingly convinced by the protein leverage theory and its recent support by Dr Naiman’s book and clinical experience.

However, it seems like people can be metabolically fairly distinct, with outliers in various directions. Lots of keto people report weight loss when they turn up the fat and pull back on protein. - is that a counterexample to protein leverage? Some people report good results when adding back a little carb content - going from sub-20g up to around 50-100g. What does that mean for ketosis? (Is it perhaps “intermittent ketosis” if those carbs are isolated to one meal or otherwise time-restricted?)


#138

Gut microbiome optimisation? There are variations between genetically identical twins, their diets and their resultant microbiome.

We are what our bugs eat.


(Ellenor Bjornsdottir (spare me thy resistant starch spiel)) #139

we are what we make of what we eat, whether that is through microbiome or insulin madness

meanwhile my tatoism is not going well


(Patricia) #140

I have been struggling lately, too, and my weight loss stalled a long time ago. I found that I have to restrict calories as well as carbs. Not fun, but it’s the only thing that works for me. I am a senior and have spent decades ruining my metabolism with various diets, so that could be part of my problem.


#141

Ditto. I lose weight when I’m tracking what I eat. The reduction in hunger that I get from Keto helps significantly, but I have decades of compulsive eating habits to overcome.

Two big problems for many overweight people are bad habits and absent-minded eating. Then, combine the two, and… :frowning:


#142

Refute the following science. You guys are making it about me like I give a bleep about praise. You guys are hurting yourselves and others by spreading misinformation.

Caffeine mimics adenosine.

5’ AMP-activated protein kinase or AMPK or 5’ adenosine monophosphate-activated protein kinase is an enzyme (EC 2.7.11.31) that plays a role in cellular energy homeostasis, largely to activate glucose and fatty acid uptake and oxidation when cellular energy is low. (Which occurs only during fasting and exercise)

Activating ampk with caffeine and keeping growth hormone levels low by not exercising and/or by eating multiple meals a day is basically a slow death because the body can’t produce the growth factors required to grow.

An excellent paper regarding obesity…

Regarding a lack of growth hormone from eating multiple meals a day:

The science below says that long term chronically low growth hormone levels by eating multiple meals a day and/or being sedentary leads to health issues. There is many long term supposed ketoers who look skinny and sickly because they aren’t in ketosis.

The following study is an excellent example that proves that eating multiple meals a day on a ketogenic diet leads to growth hormone levels reduction of 50%.

Heart issues on multi meal keto due to lack of growth hormone…
https://www.acc.org/about-acc/press-releases/2019/03/06/10/29/low-carb-diet-tied-to-common-heart-rhythm-disorder

Antiarrhythmic effects of growth hormone

Growth hormone also raises aldosterone. So a lack of growth hormone leads to a lack of aldosterone and pissing out vital minerals. I’ve never had to take a mineral supplement and I notice many of you need to take an electrolyte mix. Unnatural?


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #143

@anon81060937 You made it about yourself. This most recent post of yours has some interesting info, why didn’t you post it previously rather than get all defensive when someone disagreed with something you claimed?


(Edith) #144

I posit that if one has insulin resistance then he or she has the low energy states you are referencing, because their cells cannot get the energy they need. This causes the constant hunger resulting in the eating of multiple meals per day plus snacking and no energy for exercise. Keto does change that.

With that being said and my knowledge of biochemistry slim, what point were you making with the papers you referenced?