Can we please stop repeating the “You have to eat at a deficit to lose weight on KETO” lie?

(Failed) #212

Another comment, most if not all of the studies were done on people eating a high carb diet. I wonder it would come out differently if the studies were done on people doing a ketogenic diet.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #213

To which studies are you referring? It might be worse with the restriction/loss/regain pattern on a carbohydrate diet but I believe the same mechanism will work against you intentionally restricting any nutritional program and trying to manipulate your metabolism in that way. It works till it doesn’t and you’ve trashed your metabolism and are hungry all the time till you eat more and start regaining. We’re built that way. Keeping insulin lower and ramping up your metabolism is the secret hack of KETO, not restriction of food.

(Failed) #214

Some of the studies I see being referred to don’t state the diet macros, so my assumption was that they are the standard American diet.

I know that Dr. Bekman has proven that protein doesn’t raise insulin on a keto diet to the extent that it does on SAD and that the glucagon:insulin ratio doesn’t change at all when someone in ketosis eats protein. So I wondered if that carries over to other things that have been studied.

I’m not saying that the conventional wisdom is wrong, I’m just wondering.

(Polly) #215

Yes! Thank you. I love the way you put that David.

#217

My new “low carb” GP Dr. in Australia is still concerned about my cholesterol results. He has advised against eating saturated fats and to eat more mono-saturated fats. I questioned him about that interpretation and advice and was disappointed as he explained that elevated cholesterol is linked to heart disease. I explained I was on a ketogenic diet and shouldn’t we expect a variation of blood results from the “normal” values based on ranges for a population eating a higher carbohydrate diet. I thought we were going to talk about genetic testing for APOE4. He went on to talk about avoiding added sugar and processed foods, but healthy whole grains, fruits and vegetables were important to reduce my cholesterol. I recognised he was not a keto-friendly doctor and that “low carb” doctor can mean many things in marketing a medical practice. This new doc has a Scottish accent, as an interesting aside. We had a long consult as I questioned his platform and he sits somewhere between low-fat wholefood diet and paleo. He was nice enough, but not a good choice, even if he is on the Low Carb Australia web page.

I liked my country town GP, before my move to the city for a new job. He is middle aged and overweight and has a good sense of humour. He advised I would kill myself with a high fat diet and did recommend statins at a blood test. But over time he saw me getting healthier as his health got worse. I became a fascinating experiment as I would turn up every few months for blood tests to monitor my expected demise. We discussed blood markers and diet. He would order blood tests like fasting insulin saying that he usually would not run that. Then we would go over the bio-markers and I could witness realisation dawning. Over the 2 years I was his patient, we had a good relationship. He trimmed down when he went low carb. So, I guess, in the end he was a low carb doctor.

I have spoken with Dr. Demasi directly over her statin reporting and how that turned the mainstream medical establishment against her. She is eloquent and very intelligent. Also she is quite down to Earth in replying to an email from a complete stranger in a polite and open manner.

The thing about Dr. Norman Swan, is not the inaccuracy with which he reports the low carb diets, it’s not his personal bias toward the Mediterranean diet, it is that he is a trusted source of information on a national, generally trusted media outlet (if one is a bit socialist). If Dr. Swan was just in his own practice, fine and fair enough. If he was a social media influencer with an obvious profit motive and supplements and products to spruik, we could cut him a bit of slack for his biases. But he is employed by the public purse in a purported public health science communicator role. And that is why he requires the extra scrutiny. The situation is more about politics and mass media manipulation than actual health reporting and education. I have family and friends who will contact me from their passive trusting media soaked lives to update me that a real doctor says that the keto diet is not good. Even if I point out that the expert he interviewed is a vegan with an agenda, the trust those people close to me (and whom I care about) is with Dr. Swan. (see other forum topics about how people can’t hear the message from someone close to them).

Yes, Dr. Paul Mason is a very good communicator. His presentation on the low carb approach to skin cancer and sunburn was good. I do catch his YouTube clips. Totally agree with you.

#218

Dr. Rhonda Patrick explains to Joe Rogan that ketogenic eaters (and carnivores) eventually just start to eat less. The diets are forms of fasting mimicking diets as studied by Valter Longo. By eating less, people eat less calories. This is the understood mechanism for weight loss on the list of diets that she links this mechanism to.


(bulkbiker) #219

Except of course when they don’t…
Check out the Wittrock and Feldman over feeding experiments.
Dr Rhonda has many things back to front…

#220

link please

(bulkbiker) #221

I obviously type Dave Feldman’s name to much as Sam Feltham turned into Feldman

Jason Wittrock did 3 weeks of almost daily videos when he did his 4k calories daily over feeding experiment… I’ll let you find them on his channel

First one here

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #222

These sorts of experiments are fascinating, because they clearly demonstrate the body’s ability to cope with varied inputs.

Gary Taubes also mentions one of the early studies involving an ad libitum low-carbohydrate diet, in which one of the participants was eating 3000 calories a day when all the others were eating far less, and yet he lost just as much weight as the other guys. The name of the study never seems to stick in my mind, but there’s a reference to it in Good Calories, Bad Calories.

(Todd Allen) #223

The Jason Wittrock experiment shows Jason Wittrock’s ability to cope with varied inputs. But he is in fairly good shape and still somewhat young. My guess is if Kirk Douglas tried the same experiment today the results wouldn’t be as impressive. While the idea of overeating our way to crazy high metabolism and vitality is appealing the practicality of it varies quite a bit.

(bulkbiker) #224

This one was quite interesting too
In gorillas admittedly but even so…

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(Full Metal KETO AF) #225

Politics and diet don’t mix. I have no interest in a diet with an emotional or political based reasoning. I won’t put up with anyone who hints at a vegan agenda. Or with anyone selling keto related food products or supplements because their focus is on cash flow. Most of my family probably think I am a bit crazy with my diet, they see and like the results but when I tell them grains and fruit are poor food choices they just say okay but eat them anyways. I guess I really don’t care what they think, I’ll be saddened attending their early funerals.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #226

FWIW 74 year old male here, fairly fit, moderately active, full-time job that requires standing and walking on shift. 2800 calories per day to maintain. I think that’s somewhat more than what’s expected.

(bulkbiker) #227

Interestingly though he reported working out far less than normal due to the requirements to make the daily videos and his newly born son.
So I guess his daily calories in wasn’t even compensated for by extra exercise which made them even more “excess”.

(John) #228

nobody got fat in 21 days.It took most people years if not decades. these short experiments are a waste of time. All they do is make people think you can eat as much as you want on a keto diet and not gain weight. If there is something that needs to stop being repeated its these short so called experiments.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #229

So I take it you aren’t at all impressed when someone eats 2-3x the normal amount of food for three weeks with no weight gain? You would think that might add a couple of pounds at least. Anybody who thinks they could do this indefinitely surely would gain weight. But I would think three weeks would have resulted in some gain…:flushed:. Call me impressed.

:cowboy_hat_face:

#230

FWIW my own two longer experiments (around 4 months) have shown that I can gain a few kgs on keto if I eat a LOT of food - I have to eat beyond satiety. After about 4 months my metabolism adapts to the higher intake & I stop gaining weight. If at that point I return to just eating to satiety I imagine my weight will drift down to my set point again (maybe not :woman_shrugging:) but I tend to be sick of eating at that point so eat less (at a ‘deficit’) & easily return to my set point within a month. Much depends on genetics & how adaptable your metabolism is in either direction.

(John) #231

I guess maybe I dont see the point of it. I think most people that have been keto for some time would agree that if its done for a long period of time there would be weight gain but where i have the problem is that when people are new to this way of eating and are online researching it they find videos that imply that you can just keep eating all the fat you want and dont have to worry about weight gain. Its just not true. In fact they usually do have a tiny bit of weight gain and then say it is actually muscle gain. So now people might think not only will I lose weight but im gunna get yoked without any effort

(Full Metal KETO AF) #232

No accounting for naive people. Anybody who would base their keto efforts around something like this is misguided. However to me it demonstrates that where your macro nutrients come from is more important than a misguided notion about restricting calories to loose weight. I added about 500 kcals to what I was eating and have dropped a couple of pounds in the last three days. I won’t be adding 4000 kcals though. :joy::joy::cowboy_hat_face: