Can we please stop repeating the “You have to eat at a deficit to lose weight on KETO” lie?


#21

Just cause a mass or doctor popularizes a words meaning, it does not modify english language, if u fast ur in deficit, if u eat less than what ur body needs, ur in deficit. It does not matter how u choose to calculate it or call it.

I get what ur saying and understand why ur posting the links to these videos, u just need to realize that what ur doing now is working cause u have found the optimal deficit model that suits ur bodys individualistic needs.


#22

I agree that the math isn’t a simple CICO model. But if you want to tap into the energy stores that your body has (fat) and use them up, then you need to take in less energy than you burn everyday. The simple way of saying that is to eat at a deficit. It’s not straightforward to figure out what that deficit is. It’s effected by more than just the total energy amount you take in. The type of energy and it’s effects on your body chemistry and biology will make a difference. And it probably changes.

I think it’s clear that if you’re under eating significantly, your body puts the brakes on and slows your metabolism to be sure you’re not burning through those energy reserves too quickly.

Finding that sweet spot can be tricky–sometimes you need to increase your energy intake to rev up your metabolism. Sometimes you need to change things up, just to keep your body from settling in to a routine.


(Full Metal KETO AF) #23

Never implied that keto is all you can eat. I could eat more than I do. I could easily eat three chicken thighs instead of two. Eating two isn’t restricting in any sense of the word, three might be overeating. My appetite is naturally regulated after a year of sub 20g.carbs daily. Typical food for me is 3-5 eggs for breakfast depending on the size I get a good deal on and bacon or sausage and some cheese. Dinner more meat like a half to three quarters of a pound. Broccoli maybe another vegetable about 150—200 grams. I feel full. I fast about 19 hours everyday. I don’t eat after about 3 pm. I don’t make deserts, I don’t make fat bombs, I never snack. TMAD everyday. I don’t do cheat days. Maybe the lack of sweet treats makes it easier for me. Never tempted to squeeze in dark chocolate or nuts or berries. The closer I move towards Carnivore eating the more weight I seem to loose lately and the easier things are.


(Ken) #24

Well, then why are so many people tracking their calories and macros?

Personally, I’ve never tracked calories, just made sure I’m hungry when I eat to lose fat, and made sure I was eating two thirds meat to one third fat. When I eat without being significantly hungry my fat levels stay the same. Of course, once adapted and hormones are normalized, you have to eat less than you burn to lose fat.


(Full Metal KETO AF) #25

Good question Ken. I track for analytical reasons. I track to keep my carb intake accountable. I track my weight trends over time. I track to experiment with macros and be able to find out how they are affecting my weight loss patterns. And because I find it interesting.

What I don’t do with tracking is sticking strictly to anything but I am aware of my choices. I set my fat macro to zero. I set protein to a 150grams as a ceiling. So my daily protein almost never hits 150. Usually more like 130. I weigh 150 now and I started at 205. I am an inactive amputee. I have a hard time with distance walking. I average 1800 calories on the app. But it’s not a target or a limit. Daily requirements vary and so does my appetite but I pretty much know how much food to make. I don’t do much multi serving cooking so I don’t feel inclined to eat more because it tastes good. I keep life simple.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #26

The easiest way to look at it is to consider the arrow of causation. When a teenager grows six inches, she eats her parents out of house and home. Her energy intake is greater than her energy expenditure. But no sane person claims that a teenager grows because of her extra food intake. We all know that her growth is caused by hormone secretions that cause the extra energy intake. We also know that it is her hormones that direct the food she eats into building muscle, bone, brain, other organs, and the layer of sub-cutaneous fat that every woman needs as an energy reserve for when she becomes pregnant.

The hormonal model also accounts for the fact that when we are in fat-storing mode, the extra food we end up eating is directed into our fat tissue, and is not used for other purposes. The hormonal effects are what require us to eat the extra food. If CICO were really true, it would be fifty-fifty whether we would use the excess intake to build muscle and other organs, or to build up our fat store.

Lastly, the matter of the First Law of Thermodynamics is easily dealt with. It is a red herring, because it applies only in the case of closed systems, and we know that the human body is not a closed system. If our body were truly a closed system, we would have no need to take in food and oxygen, or to excrete food waste, water, and carbon dioxide, or to waste heat in order to maintain a constant temperature.


A review of the book Burn by Herman Pontzer
(Karen) #27

I hear you are saying, and I’m glad that you broke your stall.

I’m pretty sure that at some point you must use your body fat. Which means:
*You must stay below 20 g of carbohydrates
*You must eat adequate protein
*And (if you have body fat to lose) you must ONLY eat TO satiety of fat.
That might look like deficit eating, but you are using up your own body fat to cover the energy needs, therefore there is no deficit.
The problem here is that…
I know what 20 g of carbohydrates are.
I know what adequate protein is.
I struggle with the “Am I satiated?” Part :stuck_out_tongue:

I remember in a recent episode on ketowoman where Richard was talking about just this.

*By the way I certainly agree that fasting is in no way deficit eating. *


(Full Metal KETO AF) #28

@Keto6468 Do you feel like you don’t get enough to eat doing KETO Karen? Hunger feels different now. I don’t confuse an empty stomach as hunger so much, it’s mild unlike the noisy bubbling sounds my stomach would make if I went too long on a carb based diet. It isn’t that gnawing feeling, I can drink water and it usually goes away. When I make a plate of food I fill my stomach about 80% and I feel comfortable and satiated. I could put more in there but I realize at that point eating more won’t make me feel better. I eat leisurely. I chew food well. I take my time and enjoy every bite. I think this helps in sensing satiety. Overeating is common with people who eat too fast. My dad was like this. When the experience is over before they are ready to finish the pleasure in the mouth they want just a leeetle bit more. And then it just turns into overeating because it’s good.


(Cristian Lopez) #29

ODE, I actually agree with you in this argument, I also believe in the insulin carbohydrate hypothesis but a lot weight loss also plays into being in a deficit in some way, shape, or form. I read studies and studies upon this subject and it can vary a lot based on uncontrolled factors. I can even attest myself, an athlete and advocate to being a health coach when I grow up, basr my bulking periods and cutting periods off a calories in a weekly basis model and see consistent results, I mean otherwise I eat too less and my metabolic rate eats through the muscle I’ve gained since at this point I don’t want to be leaner. We keep mentioning “weight”? What weight? Muscle, glycogen, fat can all be forms of weight loss which can be up-regulated through special combinations of what we eat like more muscle sparring properties of protein, or more glucagon promoting fats, or more energy and fiber providing carbs. Then take in hormones and ketosis being factors. There’s something we are all missing here! It’s way to vague to state such a thing that upping calories on keto leads to weight loss !stat! Maybe involving metabolic pathways for an individual is a better way to explain it, not scrutinizing each other against a circular argument. Let’s be scientists not activist! (I’m looking at you PETA)

PS. I posted this way later into this thread since I paused for a few hours to finish up some calculus hw


#30

How is that not CICO? Two thighs is a possible deficit of calories, but three thighs is a surplus of calories? Are we just talking semantics? “Calories” is just too imprecise because there are so many other factors at play?

I apologize if that’s covered in the videos. I haven’t found the time for them yet.

Specifically, the report stated:

The group as a whole on average burned 2,607 calories per day at rest before the competition, which dropped to about 2,000 calories per day at the end.

Six years later, calorie burning had slowed further to 1,900 per day, as reported in the journal Obesity, May 2.

The slower the metabolism, the more a person has to cut back on calories in order to keep from gaining weight.

An issue I’ve brought up before – are they inherently less healthy at a BMR of 1900 vs 2607? Is there such a thing as an optimal BMR that people should be shooting for?

But an optimal BMR for someone that wants to eat a lot would be very high. But too high and it could get very costly and very tedious (e.g. Stephen King’s book, Thinner).


(Bunny) #31

Why worry about counting calories when you can eat reasonable portions and not eat so often and get caught up in counting numbers game and if your worried about messing up start pumping some iron so you don’t have to worry about it if you do have a carby feast?

So simple a cave man could do it…lol


#32

If it were that simple, no one would be obese. :frowning:

That’s about as helpful as telling an alcoholic or a drug addict they just need to be more reasonable about how much alcohol or drugs they are using.


(Bunny) #33

Ok, Let’s rephrase this, drugs and alcohol are not food and not a good analogy for the often said “carb addiction;” if your eating in such a way and not paying attention to physical fitness and focusing too much on diet as the only answer to your problem, then you will always be in a tortured perpetual state of going over one carb and storing it as lipid droplets (fat), who would want to live like that constantly?

I would want to be metabolically fit enough to handle some extra carbs or junk food every now and then and not sit their and worry myself to death because I ate a donut!


(Libby) #34

:stuck_out_tongue::stuck_out_tongue: Eat Less Fast More hahahahaha


(Steaks b4 cakes! 🥩🥂) #35

Well said @David_Stilley Not to mention harmful to hair, skin and nails!!! Calorie deficits are a thing of the past!! You MUST eat food to feel well, succeed and be healthy. Calorie restriction is basically denying your body of all it needs.
Macro calculators are ridiculous, just like you, I bought into this concept for too long. A computer generated target knows nothing about your individual needs. Instinct goes a long way with Keto. It teaches you to listen to your body.


#36

OK. I watched a few of the videos. I was underwhelmed. A calorie is not a calorie. 3500 calories is not equivalent to a pound of fat. Agreed. Such rules of thumb are not intended to be precise, and fail more often than we’d like. In the same vein, all carbs are not the same. All fats are not the same. All proteins are not the same.

But…

  • If I only eat one chicken thigh a day, I’ll lose weight. If I eat 50 of them a day, I’ll gain weight.
  • If I only eat a pound of cauliflower a day, I’ll lose weight. If I eat 200 pounds of them a day, I’ll gain weight.

Neither extreme is healthy, or desired. But there is a continuum there, and somewhere in between there is a “moderate” amount that would work.

The clocks I use to tell time are never absolutely precise. But they’re close enough to get the job done. So what usable unit of measurement would address nutritional quantities? What would get the job done? What would work better than calories?

How many [flugelsnaps] do I need to eat in a day to maintain my weight? How many [flugelsnaps] do I need to restrict in order to lose a pound of fat? How do you reconcile the [flugelsnaps] so they accurately apply to the various types of carbs, fats, and proteins?


(Trish) #37

@David_Stilley Does this not just being us back though to the other side of that coin whereby (possibly lower) food intake plus usage of existing body fat equals sufficient caloric-equivalent nutrition. Many days I struggle to eat what would be considered high enough calories to at least equal my estimated BMR; however, I eat to satiety always. I don’t actually count calories though cronometer does it for me. I really only care about carbs being less than 20. But there are days I eat 800 calories and days I eat 1500. On the lower days I would argue that since I am perpetually in ketosis, the 36% of me that is fat is, or at least should be, making up the difference; therefore, there is no deficit. No?


(bulkbiker) #38

For a period of time until it stops… then what do you do… eat 1/2 a chicken thigh a day to maintain… then if you start to gain what do you do?

No one is claiming that eating less doesn’t lose weight short term but maintaining that weight loss is the key. This is where CICO falls down.


(Wendy) #39

My problem with Kcalories is that I don’t believe it’s an accurate measurement of the energy we get from foods. It is a measurement of how something is burned in a box.
I personally have never tracked my calories and have been able to eat to satiety and reach my ideal weight and maintain.
I do generally do time restricted eating. I’ve done maybe 5 days of 24 hour fasts on this keto journey. I’ve been eating keto only a year and a half.
I do believe if I eat too much I will gain weight, I just apparently do not need to eat too much. As we all know, what we eat is the magic bullet. Not too many carbs and adequate protein. I personally believe adequate and healthy fat is also important for health and good weight loss/control. I’ve never tracked how much fat I eat, but it has been a good amount. Sometimes I enjoy fat bombs, I add butter, and definitely do not shun the fat from my meats.
This is what has worked for me so I continue to eat this way. I have sometimes added healthy carbs to keep from losing too much. Today I weigh 118. I started at 200 LBs less than 2 years ago. (I am 5’6 and 54 years old, post menapause.)
I also believe seed (vegetable) oils are a huge culprit to bad health and really avoid them.


(Scott) #40

Just because food or calories have energy does not mean we utilize it at 100%. The body has many mechanisms to regulate how calories are dealt with. It can adjust temperature and metabolism to waste or conserve. Then there is the hormonal side of storage and utilizing calories. In almost ever case of caloric deficit the weight loss slows and stops (not to be confused with starvation) only to result in rapid weight gain when additional calories become available. It is far too simplistic to broadly state that the only reason low carb works is because it places us in deficit. To this I say untrue. It is also not helpful to say if you eat one of something you will lose weight and if you eat 200 you will gain weight because it is just not possible. I do recall the podcast #147 “Sam Feltham the man who ate 6000 Kcals/day and lost weight”. It was a very good experiment that shows clearly that the type of calories make a difference. Of course anything like that which does not support CICO quickly get placed in the , oh that is N=1 and cast aside.

The Keto WOE I can best describe as “opposite world”. Fat is good low fat is bad, eat as many calories as you need, caloric deficit is not necessary. At the end of the day I have proven to myself that I do not need to calorie restrict and counting them is a fool’s errand. This is me however you need to do you the best way you can. It does not affect me other than taking this opportunity to stir the pot a bit.