Straw man. Nobody is saying this.
What we are saying is that ENERGY IN MATTERS. This is undisputed by anybody in the field; certainly not by any of the luminaries in lchf. It’s amazing to watch science denial take place so commonly amongst keto fanatics.
We were doing just fine without you trying to fan the flames with deliberately inflammatory language as you leave.
Almost everybody from the days before the dietary guidelines looks gaunt by today’s standards. Just sayin’.
ENERGY OUT MATTERS, TOO!
And energy out is not a constant, so energy in is not the only tool available for weight loss. And this is why people are on record as having eaten enormous amounts of calories a day while still losing weight—because the body compensates. If you can actually eat past satiety to the point of actually gaining weight from how much you are eating, I salute you—because I start to get really nauseated if I venture even a small amount past the point where my body tells me I’ve had enough.
I love quoting Gary Taubes’s line that causation actually runs in the opposite direction from the usual assumption: we eat more because we are gaining weight, not gaining weight because we are eating more. After all, teenagers don’t gain weight at puberty because they are eating more, they are eating more because puberty is making them gain weight. Likewise, if we can eat properly and get our bodies into weight-loss mode, we will eat less than we expend, because we are losing weight, not losing because of eating less. Yes, calories do count, but we shouldn’t count them!
No argument at all. The argument I have is with science illiterates who think that keto turns basic physical laws on their heads. It doesn’t. Energy in and energy out are relevant. Changing your macronutrient composition tweaks the hormones in your body so that your body processes and uses energy differently. That’s it.
Saying “calories don’t matter” or “CICO is wrong” is like saying, “Bill Gates isn’t rich because he earns more than he spends.” Rich people ARE rich because they earn more than they spend. Fat people are fat because they’ve burned less energy than they took in. Neither of these statements explains why or how, they just explain what’s happening.
These are basic facts that seem to be denied because people imagine that “keto” is magical. It isn’t. Eating fewer carbs just changes your hormone secretion and allows your body to regulate fat levels without your foot constantly being on the gas pedal. Energy balance is still, damn obviously, relevant.
Well, there we agree, also, especially when you phrase it like that. I think I get triggered by certain ways of putting it and feel compelled to set the record straight. Although there’s nothing like a good rant to get the blood flowing of a morning, lol! 
True. “Gaunt” used to be the norm, now the norm is overweight or obese. 
along the way, just as we’ve been made to feel that fat was to be avoided at all costs (followed by salt, sugar etc) we’ve also been moved to gauge or health through weight, BMI, calories and the like - and we’ve lost the confidence to listen to our own bodies instead. The keto journey is about restoring that confidence as much as it is meeting individual goals. Sooner or later we will overcome the desire to rely on some artificial measure such as calories or BMI, or some other indicator of risk and simply notice how we feel. Less anxiety, more settled. Very zen! 
Paul, I doubt we disagree on anything at all, actually!
I wish we could distinguish between CICO as strategy (generally terrible) and CICO as explanation (generally pretty decent).
When people say “CICO” they usually mean one or the other.
And some people deliberately confuse the terms for trollish effect.
Id like to think that calories dont matter, but logic tells me they do matter…I wish they didnt !!!
Hi, I must ask what is CICO?
I do feel a little ancient but I dont know all these abreviations lol lol
I think CICO matter. I dont think its the only thing but it does matter. My question would be if CICO do not matter then why do people on a keto diet turn to fasting to continue weight loss after their body has stalled on weight loss. Fasting is a way to take in less then you burn so you lose weight or burn fat depending on how you like to look at it. Sounds like a form of CICO to me
Well, yes and no. It’s VERY different to the way CICO gets used by almost everyone.
Around here, fasting is used primarily as a hormonal intervention, not a caloric one.
i would agree if you only needed to fast once and things started moving again but it seems like most people that start fasting have to keep doing it to keep things going