Can someone please explain?!

(Lori) #1

I’ve been strictly following a ketogenic lifestyle since January 1 of this year (so just over 7 months). I’ve done low carb previously with success… but never really looked into LCHF until I started this in January. I have had success. I lost about 20 pounds by May (but haven’t lost anymore since then! and still have about 10 - 13 pounds to lose)

In any case, I track all of my food along with their macros from Monday to Friday. On the weekends I don’t write it down, but still eat ketogenically in the same way I do the rest of the week. I do occasionally have non-keto foods but it is very infrequent (a birthday party where I might have a handful of potato chips or something like that).

I am finding it hard to be deep in ketosis. I measure my blood ketones almost every day. I generally try to keep to below 25 net carbs in a day…once in awhile it creeps up to 30, more often it is below 20. The highest my ketones have ever read has been 1.2 mmol and that was ONCE. Generally if things are all going as they should I run between 0.5 and 0.8 mmol.

My husband eats the same as I do and he is always high in ketones. For example, yesterday my total calorie intake was 1207 calories. I had about 100g fat, 51g proten and 13g carbs (I’m going by memory because I don’t have my book in front of me but I know my carbs were about 4.7% of my daily total calories). I also worked out yesterday. I generally work about 3 - 5 days per week both cardio and heavy weights. My husband doesn’t work out. This morning when I measured my ketones they were 0.7 and my husband’s were 2.5! WTF!?

Why can’t I get into deep ketosis…I’m thinking I have to lower my fat intake but that would then obviously lower my calories as well. I don’t know if going too low in calories is bad.

I also ordered exongenous ketones but am still on the fence about using them. I know they will most likely bump up my numbers, but isn’t that then a false reading? I want to know that my body is burning fat and creating ketones and if I take them supplementally, will I not be hindering my own success? I’ve read arguments for both sides.

My main goal right now is to take off this last bit of weight, but aside from that, I really do feel great. I am looking much more toned, my gym performance is vastly improved and so now I am just looking for further improvement, heavier weights, faster times, etc.

Any ideas about this?

(Clare) #2

The amount of ketones you can measure in breath or urine is the amount you’ve got ‘spare’ as it were.
So, providing you are in ketosis, the level you’re showing at it is not that relevant.

Exogenous ketones are fine for athletes as a secondary fuel source but they don’t seem to give you the benefits of achieving ketosis through diet. You are essentially just feeding yourself empty calories.

You may also have to accept a slightly higher body weight than you want to feel well.

You don’t seem to me to actually be eating enough - 1200 calories is not enough food for a healthy metabolism, if that’s a regular day.

I would experiment with some fasting and feasting. Limit your eating to a ten or twelve hour window - by perhaps skipping breakfast or having a keto coffee for breakfast and eat well at the meal you most enjoy - that may be lunch or may be dinner.
Eat more fat and eat to satiety.
It can be worth restricting or fast for a day or two but only if you’ve eaten well for a few days before.

For instance - I stick to a fairly firm regime during the week when I work and then relax at the weekends.
Your metabolism will slow if your body feels it’s in a famine situation.

Pop open the macadamias and give yourself a break. Stay off the scales for a couple of weeks and come back to them when you feel ready to.

Feeling well is much more important than whether or not your bum still wobbles a bit. :wink:

#3

exogenous ketones will not help you burn fat. the state of being in “deep ketosis” doesn’t cause fat burning, its the other way around. intense fat oxidation in the liver produces ketones. taking exogenous ketones will add energy into your blood stream, which will signal the body to down regulate the production burning of fat and production of of ketones, most likely.

exogenous ketones are best used when you want the benefits of deeper ketosis, but its not likely they are a good strategy to lose more bodyfat. increasing the amoutn of intense resistance exercise (not to burn calories, to ramp up mitochondrial function) and long sessions of level 2 type cardio would be better.

(Lori) #4

Thanks Clare,

As I said my main goal is to lose weight, but it isn’t about the actual number on the scale as I know that is just one reading, but it is a quantifiable measurement. I also judge my success/progress by how I feel, how my clothes feel, how well I perform at the gym, etc.

As for eating, I think sometimes I am a bit of an anomoly. I really can’t eat more than I do because I honestly do gain weight and feel crappy overall. Like I said, I don’t track on then weekends so even though I am eating ketogenically, I know I am probably eating much higher in calories because I tend to graze or eat things I don’t normally eat like nuts or casseroles that are harder to calculate the macros for. In any case, i do feel that the amount I eat (which will vary between about 1200 - 1400 calories per day generally) is sufficient for me.

I do want to experiment with IF but I can’t figure out how to fit it into my day. I HAVE to have tea with cream when I wake up in the morning…but that may be the thing I have to give up to make this work, which so far has made me too sad to try :wink: I used to do the bulletproof tea but stopped that when I didn’t feel it was helping me and I was trying to at least limit my calories in the morning.

Currently I have my tea in the morning then I usually have another tea with cream mid morning at work. I eat lunch at about 1PM then I go to the gym right after work and generally get home around 7 or 8 PM so I am often eating dinner anytime between 8 or 9 PM. I don’t often snack at night, but if I do it ends up being sunflower seeds or cheese or sometimes something like pork rinds and cream cheese. But the later I eat dinner, the less likely I am to snack becaue there isn’t much time left before bed.

I guess if I limit my food to between 1PM and 9PM when I eat lunch and dinner, I would have to skip any morning tea and also any snacking at night…which I guess would by the only way to really do this however that leaves a fairly large feeding window of 8 hours-ish.

Anyway, I didn’t mean to ramble on like that…I do appreciate your input and it has given me more to think about. Thanks so much.

(Lori) #5

Thanks Jason,

I do understand how ketones work and I didn’t mean to imply that being in deeper ketosis would instigate the weight loss…I just thought if I was burning more body fat to create the ketones for my body to use as a fuel source, that would result in higher ketone readings.

My own theory was that taking exogenous ketones would introduce an alternative fuel source which would then cause my body to not need to burn fat to create the ketones and would in turn cause me to NOT lose weight or excess body fat. (Currently my body fat percentage is about 21-22% based on my scale which I can’t really trust is accurate as I have very little experience with these things)

However I did read that ingesting exogenous ketones will further cause your body to rely on strictly ketones for energy and therefore kick it into higher gear as far as creating its own…again i have no idea if that is true. For every piece of information I read, I find a different, contradicting piece of information.

I do want the benefits of a clearer mind, better focus, increased gym performance, etc that you are supposed to get with exogenous ketones, but for the time being my #1 priority is my weight and body fat and once I can get that taken care of the rest of it will move up on the priority list. As I said, I feel so much better now on a ketogenic lifestyle than I ever did before and so I can already see the huge impact ketones has one every aspect of my being…just want to continue it in the best and most positive way possible.

Thanks again for taking the time to help me out :slight_smile:

(Clare) #6

This is the place for rambling - ramble away petal.

If you’re not hungry you definitely shouldn’t eat more - I know we say there’s no rule book but don’t eat if you’re not hungry is the one abiding principal.

The thing with an eating window is, it doesn’t necessarily need to exclude a fat based drink. The benefits of the reduced window are that you don’t trigger insulin and a Keto coffee or tea doesn’t do that. So it sounds as if you’re already doing what I was suggesting anyway.

It can be frustrating when you stall. I dropped 30 pounds in six months then just plateaued. I eventually came to terms with the fact that my body wanted to be a stone heavier than I wanted. But I felt great and decided it didn’t matter. Especially as my husband doesn’t like me really skinny.

I feel great and that’s all that matters. I wish I’d felt this well when I was a twenty something vegetarian with no energy and the constant fug of depression on me.

The other thing you can try is just mixing it up a little. Seriously overeat for a couple of days (macadamia nuts are the easiest way) then fast for a day or two. Then just go about your life and see if it breaks the stall.

I sometimes do a dinner to dinner fast from Friday night to saturday but only by accident because I sometimes forget to eat and I still have a coffee with cream on the Saturday morning.

I guess what I’m trying to say is, weight isn’t everything.

:wink:

(Mark Rhodes) #7

Hi Clare- Just curious where your information for the breath ketone acetoacetate is from spare. Ketonix does not outright claim that and other research I have read has led me to believe that the BrAca is more aligned with expended ketones. That is the beta-hydroxybutrate (BOHB) has been used and the by product is acetoacetate.

(Clare) #8

I thought that was what I had heard on the dudes podcast but I may be incorrect and if so, sorry if I am passing on duff advice.

(Mark Rhodes) #9

I was like this with HWC and coffee. I mean why have black coffee? BUT I did want to fast so I finally did and found that it was a preference not a need. That it was only for one day. Which made it easier on two days until I did three. Now I just say okee dokee, cream free days. Still prefer HWC but LOVE the results of fasting.

(Lori) #10

Sorry Mark, but can you tell me what HWC is? :blush: I have probably seen it, read it, somewhere but need a reminder. I agree that my tea is a preference…it is like a warm delicious hug first thing in the morning. It seriously is like a treat that I look forward to…but alas you are correct! Sometimes we have to sacrifice the small things for the greater good. May I ask what benefits you experienced from fasting? And what method of fasting do you follow?

Thanks!

#11

heavy whipping cream or heavy cream :wink:

#12

acetoacetate is not a by product of BOHb use, itts a reduced form of it, and in fact the form that bohb has to be broken down to to be metabolized in the mitochondria.

the literature shows high levels of breath acetoacetate correlates with robust beta oxidation the liver.

(Khara) #13

@irol770 You said you only have 10-13 lbs to lose. That’s pretty close to goal weight and for me when I get that close it comes off really slow. Like 1 lb per month max and many months not even that. The body is still changing though. I feel like it’s still sort of reformatting. Even though no pounds are being visibly lost I think improvements are happening (from my own experience). And don’t worry about your husbands numbers! He has a different body. Congrats on your success so far!

(Lori) #14

Thanks Rookie…I figured out what it stood for shortly after posting…it’s the only think I use in my tea as well so it was funny that I didn’t figure out what it was! LOL

(Lori) #15

Thanks Khara,

I agree with you and this has been a sloooow process so I’m not expecting any big changes quickly. I know that I am really close to where I want to be and I feel so anxious to get there. I can see it, it is just working toward it until I finally reach it…and then continuing beyond of course. If I’ve learned nothing else in my life, I have finally learned that there is no “magic bullet”. It is work and dedication and committment to myself and to this lifestyle. I have the power to be where I want to be, and in all reality the work isn’t that difficult…but I still have to do it and not slack off. If I slack off, then I pay the price.

I do see changes in my body and I know others do as well because they tell me. So that feels great. I guess the info I provided in my original message wasn’t really a complaint that the weight isn’t coming off fast enough, etc. It was just to give background info and so that others know what my immediate priority is even though, as I said above, I know this isn’t just about weight and that it is a lifestyle that I am happy to be living now.

My question was more about why I can’t seem to get the high ketone numbers even though I eat the same as my husband. I am not sure if because I work out I have fewer “extra” ketones in my blood to be measured because I am actually using them? I don’t know if that is how it works. I also questioned using exongenous ketones and whether that will help me. I don’t NEED the high numbers…I just am questioning if my body is doing what it is supposed to be doing if I am not seeing those high numbers.

As I said previously, I get so much contradictory information. I will read that I should be showing 1.5 - 3 mmol of ketones to really be fat adapted or keto adapted but then I’ll read that as long as you are above 0.5 mmol that you are in nutritional ketosis and it means that you are keto adapted. I read that exongenous ketones (in addition to all of the other benefits they provide) will help your body to burn fat faster and improve your own ketosis but then contradictorily I also read that if you use exongenous ketones that your body will use those ketones for energy and it will prevent further fat loss.

I am not completely new with this and I have read soooo much, but obviously not enough because I still feel so uninformed.

Anyway, thanks again for your help! :slight_smile:

(Mark Rhodes) #16

My fasting started after about 5-6 weeks of what I felt was a stall. My employer had beef brisket smoked and served at lunch and I went all in eating and over eating brisket. I did not eat the rest of the day. The next morning I thought huh, if I go till noon that will be 24 hours. Once I got through that and felt fine I went for 48. Then ate.

Since I started, I have fasted for periods of 24, 48 & 72 hours followed by periods of feasting. My usual kcal was between 2100-2500. I naturally found myself eating 4000-5000 calories on eating days. My cycles are planned with my wife who is also KETO. Our schedule since we started has been set by how we wish to break our fasts. We did 48 hours, then 5 days feast. By day 3 we are naturally tapering down the amounts of eating to our previous norm. Then 72 hours. 2 day feast. 24 hour fast, 3 day feast. Finally we did a 72 hour fast ending with a dinner in Madison WI at Good Food Cafe, a low carb specialist. They are about 90 minutes away. YUM! Our cycle is done with the hopes of keeping our elevated BMR from feasting into our fasting cycles. If I start getting cool fingertips I eat some butter. If that doesn’t help we end the fast.

53 year old male, July 15 was 204lbs, 6’2" 20.4% BF. Now 197.

To answer your other question: A very dramatic weight loss in measurable (caliper) of body fat. I have ‘felt’ my energy levels go up and consistently remain which may be my new norm. Bothersome to my wife as she thinks I am manic anyway, lol! I feel stronger from a wellness perspective. Healthier or more vigor. I am thinking that is due to elevated HgH in the 72 hour window. My lowest blood glucose was 71. My former average was 93. Now it is about 82 after 1 month of fasting. My blood pressure seems more consistent and my average pulse is dropping as well.

Finally-I am currently in day 2 of a 72 hour fast. I planned this one to end right as we leave for KY for a camping trip to witness the solar eclipse. The other benefit is as I pack the truck and do last minute chores 2 sets of chores I do not have to do are making dinner and doing the dishes which frees up about two hours per night. That’s 6 extra hours of free time to do other things!

(Mark Rhodes) #17

Thank you. I reviewed my sources and yes, that makes sense. Not a true by product.

(Khara) #18

@irol770 I agree. So much info and so much can seem contradictory. Like being in a whirlwind. My knowledge of ketones is pretty basic. I know I need to produce them to be fat adapted. I don’t have the gadget to test blood levels so I haven’t gotten all nerdy over my numbers - yet. I guarantee I’d be tracking with a chart of some sort if I did have one. I’ve just gone by how I feel. I can tell when I’m fat adapted. So this brings me to your comment of a “deep ketosis”. Is this a thing? Are there actually varying levels? I just thought either you’re in or your out (as Heidi might say :rofl: … anyone?). Anyway maybe someone here knows about levels of ketosis and light versus deep.
You mentioned there is no magic bullet. Totally agree. I naturally move away from things that seem gimicky or too good to be true. I’ve heard of the exogenous ketones but haven’t spent much time thinking about them. I don’t know. I guess it strikes me as sort of - fake. I can eat right and produce on my own and I’m certainly no high level athlete trying to gain an edge so they sort of start to fall onto the gimmicky side for me. Maybe someone has some science that will make sense and convince me otherwise. Right now the varying theories above are all interesting but just that. The contradicting info you read on them – did the positives all come from the seller of the product? Well, if you end up jumping off the fence and trying them, let us know your results. In the mean time KCKO :smiley:. It sounds like you’re doing a lot right. Great to hear you’re seeing positive results on your own. :+1:t3:

(Lori) #19

Thank you Mark!!! I have felt many of those same benefits just switching to keto. Even though I already knew it would be a positive change, I was still surprised by the changes and that of course has motivated me to continue and has shown me that this is the best thing for me.

I full acknowledge that I am a total food addict…in the true sense of the word. Some people can do that “in moderation” stuff. Not me. A couple of bites of something throws me into a full on binge at times, unless I can exercise much self control. And if I’m drinking when I start “snacking”…then all bets are off. So I do try to stay as strict as I can with this. I’ve yo-yo’d for far too long. And now that my husband is doing this with me, and my kids are older and I am basically just cooking for the two of us, it is SO much easier. However fasting still scares me :worried:

My husband currently does IF and sticks to a 9 hour feeding window. I think he’d be up for a full day or 2 day fast for sure, and often on weekends we are so busy with things that we really don’t eat until dinner time anyway (besides my morning tea with cream). But even as it stands now, as it gets closer and closer to lunch time, I can’t stop thinking about eating my eggs!!! I keep looking at the clock trying to determine when would be a good time to actually eat them. Sometimes I leave my office and do errands just to stop thinking about eating! I’m afraid that first I would totally fail the fast, but secondly and more importantly that I would fail and eat everything and anything, even things I wouldn’t normally think about eating.

I guess the only way to know for sure is to give it a whirl. My life is pretty routine, we don’t travel much and I am the person who does all the shopping, cooking and food prep so I have every reason to be able to succeed.

Thanks again for sharing your info with me. It does motivate me to really do this and see where it takes me and I appreciate your help.

(Lori) #20

@KBG the benefits I have read about exogenous ketones are vast and no, they are not just claims made by the producers of the products. There are many scientific studies that show many health benefits including reducing chronic inflammation, improved glycemic control, improved brain health, decrease epileptic seizures, improvement in plaque formation and brain damage in Alzheimers, used in cancer treatment, etc, etc. And in addition to those benefits, studies show day to day benefits as well such as increased energy, decreased “brain fog”, better mental acuity and focus, increased stamina and strength at the gym, etc. So I am all for the ketones. And I don’t think I am opposed to exongenous ketones, I just don’t know if it is what I should be considering at this point in my journey. I did purchase them for my husband to begin using and we just got them yesterday so we have no first hand knowledge yet…but I continue to teeter on the fence.

I think I may try the fasting. Mark had mentioned 24, 48 and 72 hour fasting. I think I’ll start small…maybe a 24 hour fast a couple of times per week from dinner to dinner and see how I do with that. I will try to pick days when I know I’ll be busy at work. That will help I think.

Thanks again!!! Have a great day :smile: