At the end of the day, we all define the program that we adhere to, but drawing the eat/use line seems a semantic cheat.
Can I call myself carnivore if I eat dark chocolate?
Kaiden
(Kaiden)
#22
Perhaps. Chocolate was the first non-Neanderthin thing I added to my diet, because it provided both a mood boost and a blood sugar control effect. As a ketovore, I donāt eat anything that grows below ground, unless a bag salad or restaurant salad comes with a small amount of shredded carrot, but Iāll drink kava as much as I want. I also wonāt eat a mushroom, at all, ever, but I do take them as part of supplement mixes.
Richard Dawkins has a concept, The tyranny of the discontinuous mind, that goes more into the subject of how we as human beings like to cut things up into need catagories. As an autistic, Iām even more prone to doing so, (Simon Baron-Cohen calls this āhaving a high Systemizing Quotientā).
Part of the ketogenic principle is ālet thy food be thy medicine,ā and consider how food interacts with the body, and of course the converse ālet thy medicine be thy foodā applies as well. Iām saying that the hard lines one draws around ādietā can be loosened for what one considers a ādrug,ā because they are separate categories, albeit ones that blend in to each other.
Tools like the scale, the glucometer, the tape measure, the ketone tests, etc. can let us know if weāre moving closer or further from our goals.
Maybe we can say that tea and coffee is ok becose they contain no macro nutrients,no calories,so it doesnt count as food.But chocolate have,so it counts as food.I view it as 50% legal drug and 50% food.
Kaiden
(Kaiden)
#25
Not sure about coffee, but the tannins in tea spike insulin. I have cut back on leaf teas in favor of herbal teas, but still have some Hi-Caff for the caffeine.
Explain? I can,but its not exactly rocket science,you eat alot dark chocolate,and the psychoactive molecules inside will change your state of mind.
Cocoa beans have three things in them,Theobromine,Phenetylamine and Caffeine.Everybody knows caffeine so I wont waste time describing it.
Theobromine,this bitter alkaloid,its similiar to caffeine,12% of ingested caffeine is converted to theobromine in liver.It have vasodilation,diuretic and heart stimulant effects.Its also toxic to dogs and cats.
Phenetylamine is another alkaloid found in cocoa.Its related to many other drugs such as mescaline,the psychedelic found inside cactus,amphetamine and MDMA.Alexander Shulgin wrote famous book called PiHKAL,āPhenethylamines I Have Known And Lovedā where he describes all the various phenetylamine related substances.
Phenetylamine is the main psychoactive molecule found in cocoa that causes the chocolate high.It affects dopamine receptors like all the other legal drugs like alcohol,nicotine & caffeine.Unlike them,it also affects serotonin.I believe it is this factor that makes the chocolate high being so unique.
Monoamine oxidase B aka MAO-B turns phenetylamine into phenylacetic acid,it acts similiar to endorphin.Phenetylamine is found naturaly in brain,its also made by fungi,bacteria and some plants.Its also sold in pure form as supplement.Its been used for ADHD and depression.
The combo of theobromine,caffeine and phenetylamine causes the characteristic chocolate high.Most people never experience it becose you need to eat alot dark chocolate at once.Most people eat only little dark chocolate at time becose its bitter,it isnt sweet so there is no impulse to devour it all in one sitting.
The content of the active chemicals in chocolate is relatively low and varies greatly between different brands and even batches.To experience the chocolate high you need to be sensitive,sensitivity varies between people alot,its due to genetics,lifestyle and other drugs we take.Drugs cause tolerance and even different drugs that affect same type of receptor or neuro transmitter cause cross-tolerance.
Some prescribtion drugs or even eating dark chocolate often will cause you become desensitized to its effect,chocolate is very weak drug,so lack of tolerance and desensitization is essential to be able to experience the magic high it can offer.
It feels very nice,its by far my most favorite legal drug.Caffeine,like in coffee is strong,but there is nothing enjoyable about it for me,it makes me nervous & anxious,its stimulation is too much.Tea is upgrade,it varies greatly between different types,but generally its calmer energy,I dont feel over-stimulation and nervous feeling like coffee,but there is nothing euphoric about it.
Chocolate is alot like tea,its stimulant on calmer,more relaxing side,without the anxiety of coffee.Where it differs is that it also causes serotonin type euphoria.When I was stupid reckless teenager,I used to take ecstasy mdma pills when I was going to drum n bass raves.I dont do that anymore,but the chocolate reminds me of mdma,that euphoric serotonin type feeling is there,its like weak,baby brother of mdma.
Also the,vasodilating effects of theobromine gives it aphrodisiac effects.It is like the āpoppersā,the things you sniff and it gives you rush feeling becose its vasodilator.It also have that element to it but much weaker.When it hits me about 45 minutes after I eat it,I get feeling like inside of my brain is expanding for short moment,its mild head rush type feeling,I believe its due to vasodilation.
Kellysue1972
(Kelly Sawden Roberts)
#29
Iām so glad you posted this question here! The first time I tried to do zero carb back in March, I went 40 days while having the occasional 90% Lindt chocolate square around that time of month for my premenstrual cravings. I was also having coffee, dairy and eggs, but I gained nearly 10 pounds in those 40 days, so I went back to keto for a while. I missed the way I felt on zero carb and decided to buckle down and do a true meat and water only challenge for 30 days, then add eggs, then add dairyā¦ So far, Iām on day 14! I have not indulged in any dark chocolate thus far, but my stress level is through the roof and I am thinking that will be my go-to while Iām on ZC long term. I am in agreement that if you only eat meat, then the occasional dark chocolate treat should not make you no longer able to call yourself a carnivore. At least I hope not for my sake lol!
Kellysue1972
(Kelly Sawden Roberts)
#31
Hi there! I still call myself a carnivore, although there have been times I fell off the wagon (eg: I went on my first cruise!)
Overall, this WOE works for me and simplifies my life! I still have weight to lose, and I vacillate between having dairy and not having dairy. Overall, this has become my preferred WOE. Meat and eggs, coffee with butter blended in, sometimes (rarely) 90% Lindt chocolate. Iāve learned to be less dogmatic, but Iāll admit that itās easier to stick to zc when I donāt eat anything but meat- I have zero cravings!
CoffeeStout
(James)
#32
Iāve been using a TBSP of 100% Cocoa powder in my coffee just about every morning. 
Kris86
#33
If this works Iām also carnivore. The only non animal product I eat is pickled jalapenos in my frittatas.
collaroygal
(KCKO, KCFO š„„)
#35
I am not carnaivore, but I do eat chocolate. I eat 100% cacao bars or make my own chocolates with stevia and coconut oil using melted bars or 100% raw cacao powder. I also eat full fat Greek yogurt with those added in. Donāt even care if it is āhealthyā or not, it is one of my only two vices left, I still drink wine, just not as much. Neither have stopped me from reaching my weight goals nor have they stopped my maintaining for the last 1.5 yrs.
And even if there were diet police, would not pay them any mind at all. 
Bellyman
(Brian)
#36
Donātcha just love the ālabelsā that get tossed around?
Eat what you think is healthy for you and forget the labels.
If someone basically eats carnivore but has coffee, well, coffee isnāt an animal product. But does it matter? To me, no. To someone else, maybe.
If someone basically eats keto but occasionally eats a few beans or carrots or sweet potatoes and remains within the macros necessary to remain in ketosis, are they still eating keto? To me, yes. To someone else, maybe not.
I find that the older I get, the less I want to fit into someone elseās conceptual box. Sometimes, I do fit. Sometimes, I donāt. I used to care a lot more than I do now. And thatās not just about food. I find itās happening in other areas of life.
FWIWā¦ 
CoffeeStout
(James)
#37
So far my diet has mainly consisted of ribeye,salmon,farm fresh eggs, Himalayan salt,bacon, brisket, sausage and angus burgers. Minimally I have heavy cream,coconut oil, grass fed butter and cocoa powder. I donāt think I really have a dairy sensitivity so I havenāt stopped incorporating them. Iām trying to decide on lunch right nowā¦
A. sirloin and salmon or
B. Double hamburger steaks w/bacon and fried eggs (this will probably fill me up more honestly)
teri
(Teri)
#38
Oh my goodness, the truth in this. I joined a few Facebook groups around the same time I came here, and Jesus, those people. Itās almost sickening how they will condemn others for not āwanting it bad enoughā or for doing modified keto. If you arenāt following the rules 100% then you shouldnāt even be allowed to follow the keto lifestyle in their eyes. Itās terrible. Iām constantly directing people here and then having my comments deleted. God forbid they end up somewhere where people will support their journey.
Fangs
#39
Another older thread but just adding my .2 on it.
You are a Dirty Carnivore. A carnivore on strict plan would not touch chocolate. A Dirty Carnivore would easily allow that little bit of chocolate into their life. There are many Dirty Carnivores existing.
It is not a big deal. You can be who you want and if that little bit of dark chocolate makes you so happy then there isnāt anything wrong with it to me.
We have degress of just how much a Dirty Carnivore can push it tho. You know, a bit of dark chocolate, under my radar that is just Dirtyā¦eating plants a few times, and some fake substitute treats made with sweeteners thrown in, or grabbing fruit now you are not a Carn and off Carnivore and onto Keto.
Hereās a tiny bit on chocolate:
With chocolate being a stimulant, when it enters your body, it makes your adrenal glands go into what is called the fight or flight mode, and they begin to produce stress hormones.
This is because anything that is a stimulant is interpreted by your body as being an invader (toxic substance) and so a threat to its well-being.
So your body naturally wants to try and expel this foreign and unwanted/toxic substance as quickly as it can!
NOW for my personal opinion on it 
Yes I eat some dark chocolate when I do Dirty Carnivore. It makes me the happiest person on the planet. Itās a rare thing for me to eat it and I only have like 2-3 small squares and the best quality ones I likeā¦but when I do I slowly melt it in my mouth and savor it. It doesnāt effect me at all.
So I have my Carnivore days and my Dirty ones 
I choose to allow this into my life. It is personal what little things a Dirty Carnivore will allowā¦to me if you can handle it and allow it then go for it.
ctviggen
(Bob M)
#40
Iām not carnivore, but what Iāve been doing is eating lower percentage (higher sugar) chocolate. Yes, I know, it goes against everything, but I find it does not (seem) to cause as many issues for me. No more 85-90% stuff, more like 70% or less. I also usually combine chocolate and fat, generally using full fat yogurt, to lessen the effect of oxalates (the fat binds the oxalates). George Henderson has posted some interesting studies on this, on Twitter.