Calorie Restriction

(Pete A) #1

I may be convinced I could eat unlimited calories on Keto as long as my macros are consistent. But I find it hard to WANT to add calories, after almost 5 months of success shooting for 1500 calories a day average. Probably something about control and discipline that just idk gets me off haha

I’m to the point where I won’t need to drop more scale weight, but am fixated on my remaining belly fat/skin, and believe I’m at about 20% body fat. So there are still several pounds there?

I get 5-10 hours or more of exercise per week… I’d love to hear from those who don’t count calories and are above 2000 regularly and don’t gain…

Thanks for this great site. It definitely supports me every day!

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(Allie) #2

I don’t count at all, no restriction, just eat when I want to. If I had to give numbers, I’d say around 1800 - 2200 calories a day and my body is still changing how I want it to - I’m only little, 5’ 3" and last weigh in was 115.6lbs with 25" waist.

(Justin Jordan) #3

You maybe could. I can’t. Like a whole lot of things it depends on the person.

#4

I’m typically closer to 2500-3000/day. But the numbers don’t control me, coming from Atkins originally I was deprogrammed on that before I switched to Keto. I loose slowly now, but loose. In the gym 5x/week mainly weights and around 20min cardio. Only reason I even know my numbers is because I’ve been tracking the last couple months from the angle of putting on muscle / monitoring protein and other macro/micros and seeing how it effect muscle growth and overall energy in the gym. But from the weight loss / slight body fat loss definitely not needed. Sometimes just an going over of what your eating and maybe some fasting.

(Richard Morris) #5

If unlimited is “to satiety” then sure. Nutritional Ketosis has always been “ad libitum”. Once you get past the derangement that comes from a high carb diet to an insulin resistant person, satiety begins to work as it should to tell you to eat more when you need more energy and eat less when you have plenty.

If you stop eating before satiety, so you are still hungry and then you stop eating to hit some arbitrary caloric intake … then your body will be getting too little energy to manage it’s budget so it will make cost savings and look for alternate sources of energy (like using protein).

If you eat to satiety, and then eat some more then you will have too much energy, and your body will do more things with some of that energy and it will store some (and you will store that as fat).

Eating to satiety is the magic goldilocks point where you don’t gain weight, you don’t burn protein, and if you are overweight you will slowly lose weight.

(Pete A) #6

Thanks y’all for your replies. It really helps!

@richard yes, to satiety. I’m thinking not “unlimited” as much as working on the feeling that it makes that much of a difference if I eat a tablespoon or two of coconut oil, or 6 or 10 ounces of ribeye. Or that 1500 calories is just as good as 2000 (maybe better?) calories. Right now I’m pretty satisfied generally with my feedings. Actually I’m just as full after I eat as before (even appetite mostly all day).

@lfod14 I also am an Atkins alum (twice) and thank God I’m not thinking of “rungs” right now haha going into “maintenance”. :grinning: Adding carbs is of no interest to me and I’m glad.With Atkins it was a ticket to overindulging. I also am interested long term in leanness, and whatever I do with my food I has to complement and enhance my physical activity.

@Justin_Jordan I’m treading carefully! :grinning: I’m a binge eater and this restriction allows me to keep a lid on it.

@Shortstuff I’m envious and hope I can be right there with you, up to 2200. Are you strict at 60-70% fat?

(Allie) #7

I honestly couldn’t tell you Pete as I track nothing and haven’t since July 2017. I did track religiously for over two years before that and used to aim for 75 - 80% fat and I still have the fatty coffees, cook in butter, and add oil and mayo to foods so most likely yes.

(Justin Jordan) #8

I’ve basically got no real concept of satiety. I will, invariably, eat until I am stuffed every time I eat if I let myself. And this is more than enough calories when eating, very literally, only unprocessed meat, to maintain my weight at 285 pounds. Getting down to 235 required paying attention to amounts.

The Eat To Satiety advice is a pet peeve of mine. That’s awesome if you can, but people like me are reasonably common.

(Ethan) #9

Whether a person can eat to satiety is possibly a function of insulin resistance. Have you done any fasting?

(Adam Kirby) #10

Agreed, “eat to satiety” is completely subjective and sadly provides no guarantee of weight loss. It appears to work for a while when starting LCHF, but for whatever reason seems to stop working in many. I’m not particularly on the conscious calorie restriction page either since that is in no way a natural state of eating. I just think many people have hormonal problems more complex than a simple prescription of eating to satiety on LCHF.

(Pete A) #11

If I’m too thoughtful about eating to satiety I will step over that line too easily.

(Richard Morris) #12

Dr Phinney says that for some people it can take 6 months before they can trust their satiation signals. Personally I think if you go keto, and take time to fat adapt (2-6 weeks), and are successful (wake without feeling hunger), and then lose a whole lot of weight … then your satiation signals ARE working.

If after 6 months or so you hit a weight loss plateau, and when you eat to satiety you don’t lose weight, but you don’t put on all the weight you lost … then your satiation signals are STILL working but they are subject to a different calculus.

I’m going to do a long post on what happens when we stall, but the TLDR version is that before the stall your fat cells were unhealthy and unable to hold onto energy so all their overflow of energy was available for your satiation calculation. The stall happens when your fat cells are responding to insulin finally - which is a good thing, that stops everything getting worse, and put you on the road to recovery. Where you stall depends on how much of the stored energy your fat cells needed to draw down to become insulin sensitive - and each of us has a different capacity in our fat cells to take the bullet for us.

Finally how long you will be stalled will depend on how high your fasted insulin had gotten, and how long it takes to bring it down to a place where all of a sudden your fat cells realize “Hey’ we’re not eating, so we need to release energy into circulation”. Until then you will get hungry earlier cos your fat cells are responding to your still deranged insulin.

(Justin Jordan) #13

Hormones are important, but they’re not the only thing for all people. I ate zero carb (by the definition of this board) for a year without losing weight. I’ve lost weight, a fair amount, taking Glipizide and Lantus.

So thing like ‘eat to satiety’ and ‘you can lose fat when insulin high’ frustrate me when they’re presented as absolute truths and not sort of general rules of thumb. They’re fine if they’re working, but if they’re not, your problem might be somewhere else.

Psychology, for instance, can matter. Habits matter. I genuinely don’t understand satiety in any meaningful sense - which is probably physiological. But left to my own devices I will eat basically anything until I am stuffed. Several pounds of meat. That is probably a combination of psychology and habit. There’s no physical discomfort in not doing.

And for me calories matter.

Which, if eating to satiety works, awesome. If it doesn’t, then it’s worth looking at other things.

#14

My hunger and satiety signals have always been hard to discern. I’ve always struggled with ‘eat when you are hungry, and stop when you are satisfied’. For some people that is easier, but for those of us who either have weak signals, or signals that have been over-ridden for decades - it’s not so easy.

After years of paying attention to my signals, I finally have learned what real hunger feels like. The physical feelings in my stomach, etc. So now I know when I’m physically hungry as opposed to wanting to eat for emotional reasons. And I still sometimes fall back on: ‘If you can’t tell if you are physically hungry, you’re not.’

Satiety has not been as easy however. I’ve concentrated on trying to figure that one out for a very long time. Nada. I am also one who once started, often will eat whatever is there. Two strategies that have been helpful are to eat much slower. Not foolproof, but it does work better.

Second, if what I’m cooking is extremely appealing, I only prepare a reasonable amount. No planned leftovers, or I could eat it all. If I only prepare enough for one meal, that’s all there is. Done.

Eating keto foods has reduced physical hunger. And the goal of wanting to lose weight has allowed me to stop sooner - but that is a mental decision, not a reaction to body signal.

(Richard Morris) #15

Tim Noakes was on a live video on Facebook today and claimed that of the millions of South Africans who have joined his banting program (similar to a LCHF/Ketogenic diet), about 10% of people (apparently mostly women) don’t end up with a satiety signals that function even when they have removed the derangements of carbohydrates.

So you aren’t the only person who has been frustrated by this.

(Justin Jordan) #16

That’s interesting - I’ll try and track down the video.

For my part, I don’t find watching what I eat, amountwise, to be particularly onerous, but I know a lot of people do.

(Adam Kirby) #17

I also have trouble distinguishing between “eat to satiety” and “eat all the food”. Usually though if I feel like I’ve clearly overeaten I will be able to go a longer time before getting hungry, so I’m not sure it matters much for me.

(Richard Morris) #18

It’s here

(Justin Jordan) #19

Thanks!

(KCKO, KCFO) #20

Thanks @richard just got on line to check the forums, boom, Prof. Noakes.

Happy Friday.