Ben Bikman - reduce dietary salt too much and insulin rises

(Megan) #1

(6) Dr. Ben Bikman: Controlling Insulin for Fat Loss, How to Break a Fast, and Stop Eating Chicken!! - YouTube

28 mins

(the whole video is a good watch)

Newbie help please
(Bob M) #2

Stop eating chicken?

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #4

Did any of you watch the video? The title is clickbait. Bikman’s reasons for thinking beef is better for us than chicken make sense, if you listen to the whole discussion.

(Bob M) #5

I’m listening to it. I had to convert into mp3, then get my podcast player to recognize it.

I think he’s wrong about the chicken, at least the way I eat it. His whole point about fat always being with protein is wrong, for instance. When I was testing high fat, low protein with a CGM, I ate shrimp and mussels. Both are very high protein, very low fat. Is there some fat? Yes. Is it a lot? No. Only about 15% calories from fat from shrimp.

I also like eating chicken breast now, and get satiety from it.

So, for this part of the discussion, I think he’s wrong, at least as to the aspect of chicken = high protein and eating high protein without fat is bad.

I’m almost done, and the rest of it seems to be great.

(Bob M) #6

Also disagree with his thoughts on drinking (raw) milk. I’ve been drinking raw milk lately and losing weight. Now, I don’t drink much, but I drink it every day I’m not fasting.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #7

So you don’t think much of his argument that the fat helps us digest the protein better? I don’t know enough to be able to judge that point.

(Bob M) #8

That also I don’t know enough. And I wonder how much fat one needs?

He also implied it was better for muscle building (forget the term he used) with fat.

But I know that I can eat lean meats all the time with zero digestive issues, such as ham. Whether there’s enough fat in ham to mitigate whatever he thinks too low fat will cause, I’m not sure. Or I could still be having a negative effect, and just don’t realize it.

I will note that lately I’ve been adding A2 cheeses to my lean meats, for my lunches anyway. I’ve been doing that only to add additional calories (keeping meat to one pound), but it seems to decrease hunger. But I’ve also been testing boron, which may also have that effect.

I was bummed that >10 for insulin he thinks is bad. I’m usually around 10 when I get it tested. Not sure how to get it to go lower (and I’ve reached the lowest weight in 20+ years while having it at that level).

(Bob M) #10

Or potentially fast more?

I’m not sure. Another conversation might be in order.

I’ve heard others give some number for “fasting” insulin, and say if you’re above that number, you’re “insulin resistant”. The problem is, they never tell you what to do after that.

I’ve been on low carb/keto since 1/1/14, so it can’t be eating near zero carbs, since I’ve done that for years. I’ve fasted many, many 36+, 4-5.5 day fasts. Currently am attempting a 36 hour fast. Eat 2MAD 99% of the time. All of my meals are keto, except when I do a TKD on the days I lift. And then, it’s only the meal after I lift.

I’ve tried eating higher fat first, as recommended by Amber O’Hearn, but I can’t find a fat to eat. Suet made me nauseous. I can eat as much butter as you want me to eat, but eating it first sickens me just thinking about it. I don’t like pork fat, too mushy and smells bad to me. What other fat is there? Beef fat, but I don’t know where to get that.

And I’ve tried high fat many, many times. No satiety, just more calories.

Not sure what else there is to do.

(Bob M) #11

I should say that the rest of his talk was excellent. I agree with him 100% about calories, and did not know that higher insulin = burning fewer calories. His discussion of salt I thought was appropriate.

I’m in agreement with him on those people eating honey – if you’re insulin sensitive, and you want to do this, go for it. But there is NO reason to eat honey and if you’re insulin resistant, it’s better to not eat honey.

And I like the whole discussion about people calling low carb folk “physiologically insulin resistant” being bogus. You will get a higher blood glucose if you eat carbs initially, but it’s because you’re carb insensitive, not insulin resistant. You don’t have a stored supply of insulin ready to go. But if you eat carbs, the second time you eat them, you do.

(Edith) #12

You can download interview as a podcast. You don’t have to watch it on youtube.

I found it very interesting about low sodium causing insulin to increase in order to make the body retain the sodium. So, it seems that even if you are keeping your carb intake low, you can still have higher insulin if your sodium intake is not enough.

#13

I found it hard to listen to, but that means nothing!-
I was being distracted by a pup and the TV etc.

I’m at 18 mins.

So far so goodish. Obviously the Doc knows what he’s talking about, and can back it up.

Yeah, good.

(Diana) #14

Omg now I have to go listen to this….

#15

I’ve a steak to cook, lol.
Thank the creator

#16

I find the physiology of salt regulation and it’s effects on insulin very interesting. I add salt to taste for meals. I also enjoy a salty beef bone broth as a hot drink - it tastes great. It interests me to see carnivore people working hard to not add salt to their meals. It may be a reason for increased fasting blood insulin in carnivore people.

Naively I like to think in my opinion that if added salt to a meal improves the taste then there may be a biological mechanism behind that sensed improvement of flavour.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #17

I think this is in imitation of some long-term carnivores who, over time, found themselves adding less and less salt to their food. But those long-termers all say they didn’t set out to restrict or eliminate salt, they just stopped wanting it and feel fine without it. My take on that is that any carnivore who wants to use salt and enjoys putting it on food probably should do so.

#18

I have book-marked where the discussion turns to salt at 28 minutes. The link (below) should take you straight there.

@MeganNZ Yes, I agree, the whole presentation is worth taking in. Thanks for sharing it :slightly_smiling_face:

(Diana) #19

But this goes back to my original questions/thoughts. Why would carnivores be okay without salt and do just fine but not those on keto? The difference in carbs is small for those of us following strict keto with <20g total carbs. It’s just odd to me…what am I missing?

I have upped my salt slightly this week.

(Michael) #20

I did not add salt on keto nor carnivore and feel fine. Perhaps it is more person dependent than diet dependent, or maybe people are being overly influenced by others?

EDIT: I do salt thymus always actually, and somehow forget that I do

(Bob M) #21

I think there are too many variables. I just got back from jogging 3.3 miles, and lost enough water that I got dizzy while standing. I MUST have more salt. Felt much better after drinking a ton of water and drinking olive brine.

#22

I use the same amount of salt on keto, carnivore and every other diet except maybe the differences between the food amounts. I typically eat less as I lower carbs so I suppose the salt may go down but not by much.
But I did notice that I am more fine with less salt on my meat as more time passes close to carnivore. The salt on my roasts dropped significantly and I tolerate salty food less and less. 1.5% salt is fine but it starts to get problematic above it. I have problems with certain cheeses, meat products due to that. And I don’t talk the very common 7+ % salt smoked pork here (I think 7% is legal but 10% happens…? whatever, it’s WAY above my tolerance. even if I add much unsalted food to it, the salt interferes)… That level was serious even before but I bought those items and I hardly dare to do it now. Maybe for tiny slices with my big scrambled eggs…?
Bacon is way too salty. But I don’t really like it anyway so it’s fine. And I can handle 1-2 crispy rashers (some of the salt leaves it with the lard) especially if I don’t eat it alone. It’s variety once in a blue moon and it’s not bad, per se, just too expensive for me, too fatty and not really needed and processed too. I prefer fresh pork and sausages :slight_smile: Okay, sausages are best made by myself as they aren’t too fatty, rich and salty that way but they are still neat when I just buy them. I just need to eat them with something else. And I like eating stuff all alone.

Maybe the carnivores who don’t use salt weren’t big salters on keto either…? I don’t understand what would make the huge difference and we know some carnivores need pretty much salt…

I am a bit curious what will happens when I go carnivore(-ish, I see zero point in doing it super strict in my case but I lose items quite quickly so it may happen naturally) longer term… But it would be very troublesome to want no salt as I already have some important items I find a bit too salty. They aren’t my staples but still, they are needed for variety and joy.
And I already have problems with very eggy (my fav kind) desserts. I often feel them too salty. Indeed, eggs have lots of sodium naturally. I never salted the vast majority of desserts despite recipes always said it’s oh so important because even a tiny bit ruined them for me but now even my yolks oversalt them…? Sigh. And it’s probably more pronounced when I have my carni desserts as they don’t have sweeteners that could mask the salty flavor.
I am getting more sensitive anyway. Salt and sugar/sweetness alike. Sometimes I can’t enjoy a slice of cucumber because it’s too sweet… And on my carnivore-ish, summer has its raw vegs in moderation occasionally.
I handle fruits better as they should be sweet (and sour! that’s even more important, usually :)) but I have problems when my meat dishes or vegs (anything not dessert) are too sweet. But most fruits are too sweet too, yes.

Interestingly, I don’t need more salt even when I drink a ton of water. Or if I don’t eat for days (it never happens nowadays but it did a few times before). I am a human so if I had no sodium for 3 days while I would drink a ton of water and sweat outside a lot, I surely would need supplementing it but normally I don’t need it ever.
And it’s perfectly fine for me to get all my sodium in one go too. I had plenty of OMAD days and I only have sodium from my food.